Pickup locations

[ctmullins]

The neck mudbucker on an EB0 is in the same position as a ric neck pickup.

And that's where the similarity ends.

The Gibson mudbucker is one of (if not THE) most overwound pickups available, with a tone that resembles an army of goblins whacking a mud hole with sledgehammers. Not articulate, and not subtle.

The Rickenbacker pickup is (to a greater or lesser degree, depending upon vintage) a moderately underwound single-coil, with a sweet tone and plenty of articulation.

Two entirely different sounds, which proves that the pickup type matters as much as the pickup location.

 

[Will_White]

And that's where the similarity ends.

The Gibson mudbucker is one of (if not THE) most overwound pickups available, with a tone that resembles an army of goblins whacking a mud hole with sledgehammers. Not articulate, and not subtle.

The Rickenbacker pickup is (to a greater or lesser degree, depending upon vintage) a moderately underwound single-coil, with a sweet tone and plenty of articulation.

Two entirely different sounds, which proves that the pickup type matters as much as the pickup location.

Indeed, although I now have the urge to build a bass with a pair of mudbuckers in the ric positions.

 

[mark107]

Pickup placement matter. Pickup placement of a PAIR of pickups REALLY matters. It's the interaction that gives doubled pickups basses their unique voice. For example, if you put a pair of jazz bass pickups in a Rick, while it will sound a bit different, it will still have the Rick sonic fingerprint. And vice versa.

 

[KidAmnesia]

I'd always assumed that while pickup placement to avoid objectionable sound qualities is wise, that more important is where the strings are picked or plucked, and the pickup(s) should then be limited to anywhere that keeps out of the way of main business. If I pluck a string I like the sound near the neck. If I pick it, I like the sound roughly at the same proportion of length to where a bass string is hit by a piano hammer (i.e. close to the bridge). It seems to me that the standard location of a P-bass split pickup is roughly equally between these points of energising the strings.

I have a Status Graphite that puts one of two pickups in what is for me an inconvenient location. A previous and similar Status Graphite bass did not do this. I found it interesting that I could never get the later one to sound as good as the earlier one.

This may have to do with expectations, but it still seems unwise to me to put pickup placement anywhere that might get in the way of playing the instrument, however good it is meant to sound at that point.

Where you pluck the string is obviously important, but I find that it's also important to consider where you pluck in realtion to where the pickup is. If you pluck right over the pickup, I find the sound tends to be more mid-focused than if you play further away from the pickup, where tone gets more open and less punchy regardless of where the pickup is placed. If you place the pickups to be out of the way of your favourite plucking/picking position, you lose that punch; you might like that tone, but I rather have the pickup placed right under my fingers than losing that mid-focus.

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

Where you pluck the string is obviously important, but I find that it's also important to consider where you pluck in realtion to where the pickup is. If you pluck right over the pickup, I find the sound tends to be more mid-focused than if you play further away from the pickup, where tone gets more open and less punchy regardless of where the pickup is placed. If you place the pickups to be out of the way of your favourite plucking/picking position, you lose that punch; you might like that tone, but I rather have the pickup placed right under my fingers than losing that mid-focus.

Apart from when using a pick, I have no right-hand technique to speak of, just finger resting on corner of neck, and thumb plucking the strings, and all the legato phrasing is done between that thumb and the fretting hand, but the pluck is about 4 cm from the nearest pickup, so a solid, warm sound there with strong harmonics.. I like that I can leave all setup and tone adjustments fixed and go from all-out Burnel roar with pick near bridge, to something ideal to play folk songs, sea songs, etc. The Westones are P-bass emulations, but they get all the variety of tone I need from them. I never really thought about pickup locations that much. I just trusted that they'd work ok, which they do, better than on the Status Graphite bass I originally thought would work better. That has two pickups and a blend control, but despite all this I couldn't get the sound I wanted. Probably got a lot to do with neck construction, though.

 

[dkelley]

The idea that there's a sweet spot for pickup placement is somewhat flawed. If the "sweet spot" is 3/4 of the distance from the nut to the bridge on an open string, it will be 3/4 of the distance between the fretted position and the bridge on a fretted note. So play an A on the E string and you need to move the pickup closer to the bridge to find the sweet spot for that note.

hence why bridge pickups, or warwick thumb bass pickup locations, work so well for people who play more complex music - the tone remains full of harmonics even up the neck further.... where as fender precision position will negate the upper harmonics when playing up the neck... which of course provides more tonal color of playing up the neck versus lower positions... so different results for different bass designs for different playing techniques and desires, I guess.

But yea, well, what you said summed it up so well and I just had to brain dump my related thoughts LoL. Hope that's ok... I agree with you, is what I'm really saying LoL

 

[eddododo]

Here's an old post of mine from 2018, describing my "rules" of pickup placement:

Most of us established (as in grey-haired) Luthiers have gone through the process of messing with pickup positions. When I got into designing and building my own pickups about 15 years ago, like everyone else, I built a bench mule and spent some time experimenting with moving the pickup up and down the body. The results were underwhelming.

Summary:
Take one particular pickup and mount it right in the middle of the body. Set the bass Tone controls wide open, and the amp's EQ controls all on 5. That's the "natural" sound of that pickup, when used with that combination of strings, the bass frame, and the amp.

Now, if you slide the pickup toward the bridge, the change in the sound is all in the bottom end of the EQ. It's just as if you had reached over to the amp and turned the Bass knob down from 5 to 4 to 3. It's not increasing the Treble, it's moderately cutting down the Bass. That's the only thing that's changing in the overall sound of the rig.

Slide the pickup the other way, toward the neck, and you boost the Bass from 5 to 6 to 7. The Treble stays the same; the Bass end of the curve gets louder.

Sliding the pickup doesn't change whether the pickup is muddy or clear, it just subdues it or exaggerates it. If the pickup, by its internal design, is muddy in the bottom end, then sliding it toward the neck will make the muddiness louder and more obvious. Sliding it toward the bridge will make the muddiness quieter. If the pickup's natural sound is very clear and wide range, sliding it toward the neck will boost a clear bottom end. Toward the bridge, it will reduce the bottom end, but still be very clear.

The point is that most of a pickups' tonal characteristic comes from its internal construction; the size and power of the magnetic field, the geometry of the coils, the size and number of turns of wire, etc., etc. None of that changes when you slide it around on the body. All you are doing is moderately adjusting the bottom end of the overall EQ curve.

There are no real "magic sweet spots" in the pickup position. Unless your definition of Magic Sweet Spot is that "the EQ curve sounds just the way I want it right here" or "right here it sounds just like this other bass". Okay. Pickup position is pretty much a linear adjustment. You can slide the pickup where you want it to get the Treble/Bass balance of the EQ where you want it. After you've settled on one position, you can further adjust the EQ balance by reaching over to the amp and turning the Bass knob up or down.

That's what we builders and manufacturers do. We set the pickup position on the body as a final adjustment of the overall EQ balance, for that particular pickup.

A follow-up post:

I notice that no one has yelled "What about the harmonics?" yet. You know, how pickups have to be placed precisely so you can hear the harmonics!! The magic sweet spot locations.

Guitar players and builders go wacko about Harmonics, because they want that screeching dog-whistle high end ringing while they hold a chord, trying to figure out where to go next with the lead. And some bass players want screeching harmonics too, so they can do solos too.

And by the way, The Screeching Harmonics could be a good band name.

If you want to, you can use measurement and math to locate your pickups precisely at the right spot to maximize the screeching harmonics....for a particular set of notes and chords. Up or down a step, and you get gentler normal harmonics.

Personally, I don't build my basses to have exaggerated harmonics on particular notes. I make my pickups to have a nice clear high end, but not excessive extra-highs. And I make them fairly wide aperture, so the harmonics are picked up more evenly on all notes. Less high spikes with position. That's intentional. My basses have nice harmonics, but they are gentle, more in the background, even up and down the scale.

I'm sorry if I've offended the Screeching Harmonics believers.

on the topic of harmonics- on my previous build, the neck pickup is in the perfect place to render the '4th fret' harmonic almost completely muted

 

[DolphinBro]

First, consider that scale, plucking position, and (as Bruce pointed out so well) pickup internals all are important variables. But assuming they don't change, here is a technique I use to find "sweet spots". I hope it's understandable.

1.I position my plucking right hand near the bridge and keep this consistent.
2.I use my left hand, center finger, FINGERNAIL ONLY on one string starting near my plucking hand.
3.As I pluck with my right I can hear very high pitched tones.
4.As I continue to pluck steadily with my right, I slowly move my left hand fingernail towards the neck.
5.You will hear very distinct differences in the tones you get. I don't know if these are harmonics vs sub-harmonics or just more combined harmonics, but you can tell when the note gets "fuller".
6.With a pencil, mark this spot on this string and continue towards the neck. I think you will find 3-4 spots between the bridge and neck end. To me, these are the "sweet spots" for that string.
7.Repeat for each string. I think you will find that some of these spots are perpendicular and some are at an angle to the string. Is this why a Warwick sometimes has angled pickups?

As Bruce discussed, pickup placement is about getting the fullest sound, and if you move away from that place, you are not accentuating anything but rather removing some of it. I think these marks are the fullest sounds. It'd be interesting to use these marks and compare against 60's and 70's J-basses. Leo did all the leg work so no need to reinvent that wheel. How does your marks compare? Remember that scale may be important.

This is just my two cents which is probably only worth a penny. But I've been building basses for 35yrs. I believe they are the hardest stringed instrument to master (aside from a violin) due to their range and low frequencies.

 

[Swamp_Ronin]

Yrs ago I built a bass. Used jazz pickups and wanted the neck to be a bit thinner and the bridge to be a bit fatter so I move each about 1/2 inch (neck PU toward bridge, bridge PU toward neck). It was fine. I played it for years and it sounded ... fine.

But I started with a known-good configuration (Fender Jazz layout) and tweaked it a bit. With later builds I've tended to just go with the normal Fender locations. It is just easier that way. Not right or wrong, just easier and more predictable.

I'm very curious as to how this would sound. Maybe a bit like a Warwick?

 

[rudy4444]

Pickup placement is perhaps the second most debated design criteria (with scale length probably #1) that pops up in bass design discussions. It's full of opinions, speculation, occasional attempts to apply mathematics and scientific principals, and a bunch of "W.A.G.s" that may or may not pan out to result in good sound when all is said and done.

One might as well apply numerology to arrive at the best locations, here's a partial definition of the strong points of the number 7:

"Being able to separate what's useful from what's meaningless and identify fact from fiction helps the 7 stay on track and follow the most valuable wisdom."

With that in mind, everything you really need to know is contained in the wisdom of post #7.

That, in combination with Durham52's excellent graphic ideals in post #5 should pretty much provide all of the information anyone needs to arrive at acceptable pickup placement for a new design.

I'd add that most players have a general position that they use for right hand function, so I'd try and avoid that area if possible.

This would do well as a sticky, due to the excellent advice in this "hot" topic.

 

[evil1603]

Got carried away with visually comparing pickup locations on various 35" scale basses, not an exact science obviously, but still kinda interesting (to me at least, maybe to others, too). Thought I add it here.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Also when considering pickup placement and harmonic locations etc., as soon as you fret a note, your scale changes and all those calculations are then null and void.

The best way to figure this all out is with personal experimentation. This certainly holds true for multi-scale/fan frets.
In my considerations, angle of the pickup can also cause interesting outcomes.

There are certain generalities on placement, but no stead fast absolute rules.

 

[breakevenph]

If ever I wanted to make my Jazz Bass into a PJ because I love the jazz bass body, how far would I place the p pick up?

 

[MandoMark]

If ever I wanted to make my Jazz Bass into a PJ because I love the jazz bass body, how far would I place the p pick up?

Same here! Love the J body, but would like a P pickup in the mix

 

[Stagelab]

All good advice given. While samples and demo's on youtube and the like can vary, (effects, recording quality etc.) they're still worth checking out. Try and listen to basses with pickups you are thinking of using, recorded with as little added effects as possible, that gives you a base line. It's pretty easy to find demos of most common pickup types and brands, so you can certainly hear examples of pickups in their usual places and some where particular pickups are mounted in different to "normal" positions. Music Man pickups closer to the bridge, or P bass pickups near the bridge, or closer to the neck, etc.

Also where you place pickups in relation to each other can be worth considering. Take a Warwick Thumb bass for example, they have a very specific and recognizable sound. Sure, partly due to the dense woods used, their construction, hardware and pickup types, but their pickup placement plays a big part in how they sound too. Then there's the traditional placements for Stingray, Jazz bass and precision bass pickups, which contribute significantly to their sounds. But then Lee Sklar's P bass, with two P pickups mounted one in front and one in back, of where the traditional placement is, didn't stop Lee using it on over 2,500 recorded tracks.

Leo Fender continued making pickups and experimenting his whole working life. He had a test bed made up so he could move pickups around under a set of strings and see what sounded the best (to his ear) in what positions. Have some fun and play around a bit if you want. I know there's some clips on line where people demonstrate test beds they've made and show pickups being moved around.

Here's a few illustrations I've always found useful references regarding pickup positions.

View attachment 4854627 View attachment 4854628 View attachment 4854629 View attachment 4854630

This is excellent.

In the last pic the center of the MM pickup is aligned to the front of the J bridge pickup. But in pic 2 the MM pickup (on the MM bass) is aligned a bit in front of the J bridge pickup. Which pic shows the correct comparison?

I never realized the placement impacts low end only. Thanks Bruce for post 7. Pretty sure 90%+ of bassists don't realize this. We always talk about the bridge pickup having more high end or sometimes people say more highs and mids. We hear more highs but it's simply a bi-product of the lows being cut.

 

[rudy4444]

There is a lot of information to digest here.

I guess in my original post I didn't mention that I am installing a matched set of Barts so I have a neck and bridge pickup. Not sure if this matters to the discussion

There's a lot of "information" and a whole lot of pseudoscience.

All the folks using copious amounts of math to predict node / anti-node points and then positioning their pickups based on those measurements are working with hypothetically "correct" positions based purely on open strings length. As noted in several of the posts here, those positions change as soon as the stopped string length is changed by fretting notes.

Why anyone would want to purposefully design an instrument to have a few particular notes jump out at them is really beyond my comprehension.

So what's a poor mother to do?

Examine the positions adopted by manufacturers, 9 times out of 10 based on looks, and copy them. All of those folks are well aware of node / anti-node points and if anything, try and avoid anything that provides an unnatural response.

Oh, and print out Bruce's original post and hang it up in the shop. That's all you really need.

 

[Brian Demage]

I have been doing some research on this topic by measuring from nut to centreline of pickups on the most common basses. I find its most useful to list them as percentage of scale so that they can be applied to any scale:

Pickup centre location percentages along total scale length:

51 P bass: 80.44%

P Bass: 84.14%

Jazz bass neck: 82.1%

Jazz bass bridge (60s): 92.6%

Jazz bass bridge (70's): 93.75%

Mustang: 80.84%

Rickenbacker neck: 75%

Rickenbacker bridge: 87.5%

Stingray: 89.75%

 

[DavidEdenAria]

Here's an old post of mine from 2018, describing my "rules" of pickup placement:

Most of us established (as in grey-haired) Luthiers have gone through the process of messing with pickup positions. When I got into designing and building my own pickups about 15 years ago, like everyone else, I built a bench mule and spent some time experimenting with moving the pickup up and down the body. The results were underwhelming.

Summary:
Take one particular pickup and mount it right in the middle of the body. Set the bass Tone controls wide open, and the amp's EQ controls all on 5. That's the "natural" sound of that pickup, when used with that combination of strings, the bass frame, and the amp.

Now, if you slide the pickup toward the bridge, the change in the sound is all in the bottom end of the EQ. It's just as if you had reached over to the amp and turned the Bass knob down from 5 to 4 to 3. It's not increasing the Treble, it's moderately cutting down the Bass. That's the only thing that's changing in the overall sound of the rig.

Slide the pickup the other way, toward the neck, and you boost the Bass from 5 to 6 to 7. The Treble stays the same; the Bass end of the curve gets louder.

Sliding the pickup doesn't change whether the pickup is muddy or clear, it just subdues it or exaggerates it. If the pickup, by its internal design, is muddy in the bottom end, then sliding it toward the neck will make the muddiness louder and more obvious. Sliding it toward the bridge will make the muddiness quieter. If the pickup's natural sound is very clear and wide range, sliding it toward the neck will boost a clear bottom end. Toward the bridge, it will reduce the bottom end, but still be very clear.

The point is that most of a pickups' tonal characteristic comes from its internal construction; the size and power of the magnetic field, the geometry of the coils, the size and number of turns of wire, etc., etc. None of that changes when you slide it around on the body. All you are doing is moderately adjusting the bottom end of the overall EQ curve.

There are no real "magic sweet spots" in the pickup position. Unless your definition of Magic Sweet Spot is that "the EQ curve sounds just the way I want it right here" or "right here it sounds just like this other bass". Okay. Pickup position is pretty much a linear adjustment. You can slide the pickup where you want it to get the Treble/Bass balance of the EQ where you want it. After you've settled on one position, you can further adjust the EQ balance by reaching over to the amp and turning the Bass knob up or down.

That's what we builders and manufacturers do. We set the pickup position on the body as a final adjustment of the overall EQ balance, for that particular pickup.

A follow-up post:

I notice that no one has yelled "What about the harmonics?" yet. You know, how pickups have to be placed precisely so you can hear the harmonics!! The magic sweet spot locations.

Guitar players and builders go wacko about Harmonics, because they want that screeching dog-whistle high end ringing while they hold a chord, trying to figure out where to go next with the lead. And some bass players want screeching harmonics too, so they can do solos too.

And by the way, The Screeching Harmonics could be a good band name.

If you want to, you can use measurement and math to locate your pickups precisely at the right spot to maximize the screeching harmonics....for a particular set of notes and chords. Up or down a step, and you get gentler normal harmonics.

Personally, I don't build my basses to have exaggerated harmonics on particular notes. I make my pickups to have a nice clear high end, but not excessive extra-highs. And I make them fairly wide aperture, so the harmonics are picked up more evenly on all notes. Less high spikes with position. That's intentional. My basses have nice harmonics, but they are gentle, more in the background, even up and down the scale.

I'm sorry if I've offended the Screeching Harmonics believers.

Pickup height is very important and something bass players sometimes overlook...the Gibson mudbucker is a good example...move the pickup down and it cleans up some and less compressed with less string pull.

Amps vary tremendously thankfully as well as speakers ......it's a great time to play bass compared to when Leo designed bass guitars and amps!

 

[Beej]

I have been doing some research on this topic by measuring from nut to centreline of pickups on the most common basses. I find its most useful to list them as percentage of scale so that they can be applied to any scale:

Pickup centre location percentages along total scale length:

51 P bass: 80.44%

P Bass: 84.14%

Jazz bass neck: 82.1%

Jazz bass bridge (60s): 92.6%

Jazz bass bridge (70's): 93.75%

Mustang: 80.84%

Rickenbacker neck: 75%

Rickenbacker bridge: 87.5%

Stingray: 89.75%

And this just got added to my big book of lutherie. Thanks!

 

[DolphinBro]

And this just got added to my big book of lutherie. Thanks!

I think I suggested this before in another thread. Worked for me. Try it if you want.

Use right hand to sharply pluck string near bridge. Take left hand and use your middle finger FINGERNAIL TIp to move up and down string (between bridge and neck) while plucking. Listen closely to changes in the sound. The "twanging" you hear will have select "sweet spots" where the note will sound fuller and more pure. It is as if you have a root note surrounded by harmonics. When they all come together, hold that position with your nail and mark string with a pencil. There will be 4-5 positions for each string.

For me, these are the best possible placements for that bass. Closer to bridge will yield more Jaco and towards neck more Marcus. Looking across the strings at each position may show an intonation-like angle. I suspect this is why Warwick angled some j-pups on certain basses.

Of course EQ, pup height, right hand placement, etc etc all come into play but that was not what this discussion was supposed to be focussed on.

Your results may vary. No animals were harmed during the course of this test.

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