Oh sure. I definitely wasn't saying she was the first. I'm more interested in experimenting with close mic'ing the upright, particularly when bowing.
True! Chet Baker's singing has nothing on Karen Carpenter! I'll die on that unpopular hill...
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Double Bass Pizz vs. Arco Intonation
- Thread starter Zach Gaston
- Start date
Hence the term "crooner." Yes, the RCA 44 had a prodigious proximity effect.
Pizz is also harder to tune because depending on how much horizontal force you use to pluck the pitch of the note starts sharp and then goes flat as it decays. In a musical context it's probably moot since most of the time the sustain is released well before the pitch settles and we "just" have to tune the attack, but if you're tuning your open strings you probably want to pluck with a force and velocity that minimizes the pitch drop.
With the bow that's further amplified since yes there's more harmonic content, but the weight, speed, and placement also affect intonation. Ideally if you bow an open string, take the bow off the string, and let the bass ring, those two pitches should match exactly, which is very hard to do. Also, with the increased harmonic content in a bowed note, bowing certain notes might excite higher harmonics on other strings, but also many times the place at which a note resonates the best isn't strictly "in tune" compared to 12-TET, or a note may have multiple points that sound "in tune" depending on which partial you're aiming to tune to. Being in tune with the natural resonances in the bass is a very good skill to have and certainly pays off when playing solo, but the second you start playing with other people the default has to be 12-TET (or whatever fixed-pitch instrument is present) before any temperamental adjustments can be made.
Going even further into the weeds, but there's also an expressive potential to intonation where one can deviate from 12-TET towards just intonation or to Pythagorean intonation (or anywhere in between, really) to bring out some sort of emotional reaction by playing a note more purely or by going in the opposite direction: just intonation makes major thirds, major sixths, and leading tones flat and minor thirds and sixths sharp and chords tuned justly tend to sound settled and stable, whereas Pythagorean intonation makes major thirds, major sixths, and leading tones sharp and minor thirds and sixths flat, which can be used to emphasize certain melodic characteristics or lean further into dissonances.
Those are good points. I started on cello before electronic tuners existed, and while I used the family piano to get my initial A, I was taught to check notes against open strings, harmonics etc. My teacher made me aware of 12-TET and departures from it (maybe because I seemed curious) but suggested it might be a while before I could do anything useful with that information. Today, I largely listen for whether intervals sound "right" and check open strings when possible to make sure I'm not gradually inching my way out of tune.
As a physicist, I'm trained to measure things like resonant frequencies at low signal levels... the "small signal approximation" method. Almost everything is linear at a low enough amplitude.
An odd thing happened recently. I was just goofing around and had my tuner turned on, and noticed that the G harmonic disagreed with G by a reproducible amount that was the same if I played pizz or arco, softly. I wiped the rosin of the string, same thing. It didn't happen on the other strings.
New string, same type, problem went away. I'm guessing the inner core of the string was deteriorating.
As a physicist, I'm trained to measure things like resonant frequencies at low signal levels... the "small signal approximation" method. Almost everything is linear at a low enough amplitude.
An odd thing happened recently. I was just goofing around and had my tuner turned on, and noticed that the G harmonic disagreed with G by a reproducible amount that was the same if I played pizz or arco, softly. I wiped the rosin of the string, same thing. It didn't happen on the other strings.
New string, same type, problem went away. I'm guessing the inner core of the string was deteriorating.
I didn't even know there was a difference, so this whole thread is news to me.
That's an awfully good point. It's certainly explains the difference.
That is an interesting theory. It seems accurate, if heavier pressure is the reason for the wide swings in intonation.
And it is true that intonation is perceived differently depending upon which chord member you are playing. Roots are spot on because—well they have to be, it’s the root. Major thirds sound better if they are a little sharp, and perfect fifths sound better if they are a little flat. I know this because I’m also a brass player, familiar with the subtle discrepancies in the overtone harmonic series.
Last edited:
Another great discussion. One reason my students and I play a lot of duets is it gives opportunities to discuss and demonstrate intonation issues. Dealing with the question "Why doesn't this sound good and how do we fix it?" can be an excellent teaching and learning technique. One caution I would have as far as electronic tuners go is, as someone said: "Don't turn it into a video game". It's still a hearing discipline. There are too many variables to depend on one "sighting" and assume that's the only correct one.
What an excellent point. Tuners are tools. They’re slow. They misread. They don't take into account all the overtones etc. They are severely lacking as tools to help you improve your intonation. A drone is more useful in my opinion and a drone with another player is even better if you have access to one. My wife and I have been doing scale practice together with a light drone, changing keys and scales every day and it has been a great tool for intonation. Sometimes we use the drone on the one, sometimes the five, sometimes a third. Often we don't play unison but harmony for example starting a three octave scale sequence on a different not that each other. Sometime we record it. Of course there are problems when one or the other strays out of tune but it is also quite useful as we stray but adjust. It is a moving target but it has done wonders for our ears. She plays violin and I play the bass.
Last edited:
Arco is the truth. The harmonics cloud pizz notes so there are more than one place the note can sound right or OK but there only one place where the fundamental is in tune.
I don't consider anything "practice" unless it is arco outside of metronome work.
Practice arco.
I don't consider anything "practice" unless it is arco outside of metronome work.
Practice arco.
There are a lot of ways to manipulate pitch up (increase string excursion) or down (increase pressure) when with the bow, but not so many ways playing pizz (only up by strong attack). There is more, that can go wrong with bad arco technique. But with good technique, there is just more information, compared to pizz. Therefore, arco practice can lay a good foundation for intonation, but if you want great pizz intonation, I advise, to also practice pizz intonation. You have to find a way, to deal with this lack of information, to make it work.
The small pitch corrections when playing arco, that are closely related to vibrato are not exactly the same when playing pizz. Playing arco, a lot of the movements in the left hand not only change the location of the finger on the string but also pressure and how much "loose flesh" is on the string (focus/broadness). This all changes tone color and intonation. A lot of this does not work the same with pizz, unless you play only very softly or sacrifice sustain.
There are some basic movements in the left hand, that in consider "good technique", that I don't change, regardless of playing technique, that will get me close to the intended pitch. But the microadjustments in the hand and the fingers are sometimes very different for me, arco vs. pizz.
The small pitch corrections when playing arco, that are closely related to vibrato are not exactly the same when playing pizz. Playing arco, a lot of the movements in the left hand not only change the location of the finger on the string but also pressure and how much "loose flesh" is on the string (focus/broadness). This all changes tone color and intonation. A lot of this does not work the same with pizz, unless you play only very softly or sacrifice sustain.
There are some basic movements in the left hand, that in consider "good technique", that I don't change, regardless of playing technique, that will get me close to the intended pitch. But the microadjustments in the hand and the fingers are sometimes very different for me, arco vs. pizz.
The sustained string excursion (amplitude) under the bow is far far greater than would ever occur with pizzicato beyond the initial pluck, which is why most orchestral setups have a much higher action than a typical jazz setup. A bowed string slapping the fingerboard is not nice, and cuts through the section like smashing glass. The increased excursion adds tension to the string which in turn raises the pitch enough to demand a stop adjustment. The louder you play the more adjustment is needed.
The issue is actually too much information, not a lack unless you really using dull strings -which will make it truly hopeless! At each vibration of the string another overtone is added to the sound, you are only getting the pure fundamental on the first vibration. After the first vibration, the many of the overtones are not pitched in tempered tuning.
I believe that the only thing worse than not practicing is "practicing" pizz! If you didn't practice you at least know for sure you didn't practice!
There is certainly work to do with pizzicato. Most of it gets done during playing, whether solo at home, concerts or working on rep. (a different activity than practice).
I'd suggest that the right hand does things in pizzicato playing that need to be practiced.
Just sayin'.
(for reference, when I'm practicing at home it's probably 75% arco)
Just sayin'.
(for reference, when I'm practicing at home it's probably 75% arco)
Drones are excellent because they allow the user to bypass all of the theoretical talk of different tuning systems and just deal with finding the sweet intonation spot against any sonic reference they are playing with.
One of the most eye/ear opening experiences I've had lately is the realization that my ears will generally gravitate to just intonation when playing with a drone, but will immediately adjust to equal temperament the moment an equal tempered instrument joins the texture. I learned this by recording a track with a drone, then going back and adding a piano track. The thirds and 6ths sounded great against just the drone, but terrible against the piano part. So I turned off the first track and re recorded the bass part with the piano track, and it sounded in tune again.
It reminded me that there's a hierarchy to our intuitive intonation. We tend to gravitate first to making sure that perfect intervals are in tune. In playing with the drone, there were few unisons or octaves to tune to, so the imperfect intervals defaulted to the intonation that was least dissonant against the drone. Which ended up as just temperament. But the moment the piano was playing those 3rds as part of its voicings, the need to be in tune with those unisons or 8ves was paramount, and it just happened without any thought.
So the upshot is that the "sweet spot" is simply the place against any reference pitch or pitches that produces the slowest beat pattern in the note being played. It's not necessary to understand what tuning system you are using. Just play the "calmest" version of that note in relation to the others, and call it a day.
Last edited:
A Pizz Slap of Truth...Needs to be stated, which is shocking.
Yes. 101% agree and I DO practice "pizz" as well as arco.
IMFO, of course.
Thx.
I probably never play at an orchestra volume, usual in a trio, often playing with extreme quiet. I do understand what you mean
My experience is, that I don't listen to the fundamental anyway, but how the complex sound of the bass is mixing with the music. Most people are really bad at tuning sine waves, but complex sounds with harmonics are much easier to hear. This is also the best way (only way?) to get an idea, how differen tuning systems and just intonation works.
And actually, harmonics decrease as the notes ring out. On every string instrument I know, plucked notes start bright and end dark.
Last edited:
