Play by ear - learn to match notes/keys/intervals etc by ear... tips?

[FuzzFacetious]

There's a video on youtube that you can tune your bass to (try searching "bass guitar tune e standard" or something along those lines). Try loosening your strings up a bit and then tuning by ear to match the bass guitar in the video. Then you can plug in your tuner and see how close you were. I found this really helped me hear that slight wobble of the two notes when your close to being in tune but not quite dead on. When the wobble sounds slower, it means your are closer to the note than when it sounds faster. Give it a shot and see if your can hear that wobble, it means your close.

Then next time you're jamming and the guitarist plays a note, you should be able to slide up the neck to find it just like you were tuning. Not sure if this will help or not, but it helped me out a tonne when practicing playing by ear.

Best of luck and be patient, that's #1!

I didn't use the video, but I detuned all the strings except for the E (and low B/5th string) and, while using the 5th fret low with open on the higher string, then open low with 7th fret higher strong, then 12th fret low with 7th fret higher string, and I managed to get very close, for the first time ever (though it took a long time!), I found that once I get to within a semitone (ish/estimated), I can't hear which one is higher than the other, but I can hear the wobble that you speak of if I play them together. I then run through the pentatonic scale and the main bassline of Limp Bizkit : Rearranged (because it can be played across 4 strings AND played in various locations across the fretboard, and tried to fine tune/tweak it, then when I checked it, the 3rd string was near perfect, and the higher two were slightly off but not miles out, so I think this method is definitely WIN Thanks mate, I owe you a pint. I'll aim to do this at least once a night on guitar and/or bass and track my progress.

I guess electronic tuners have made us (me!) lazy

 

[smeet]

Here's an idea borrowed from Indian classical music, also used by fretless players, among other sources. Play against a drone, meaning a somewhat low-pitched note with a lot of harmonics, so it is low but not thick and heavy-sounding. A low note from a string patch on a synth might work. It should be a note that sustains forever. Make sure there is no chorus, vibrato, or other modulation. It should be thin and kind of "reedy" sounding. You can find online drones probably.

Over the drone, first try to match that pitch with your voice. Slide your voice s-l-o-w-l-y up and down, listening to the beats get slower as you get closer to the note of the drone. Listen to the way the two notes "rub" against each other. Then play some slow scales and lines on the bass against the drone. Sometimes fuzz or distortion on your instrument can make the pitch easier to hear, as it adds harmonics. Do this for 10 or more minutes a day, using a different drone note each day. I think your pitch awareness will grow quickly if you do this.

Playing against a drone is a very different experience. If you've never done it, it makes it shockingly easy to hear when you are out of tune.

It might not work for you, but it did wonders for my ear and my intonation on the violin (back when I played it).

 

[thehangingmist]

That sounds like a great method, thanks!
The wobble thing - it is good to have something tangible to listen for, I think I have kind of noticed that, but not really known what it was, so thanks, I will try to take notice of it and see how it helps


This is what I was saying to the first guy - How do you know if you're singing the right notes when you begin?

I've just downloaded that app, I've seen you and a few other people mention it so I look forward to trying it tonight!



That's great actually - I occasionally play some kind of interval across high notes and say "oh that sounds like the notes on XXX song" and then play it in other positions until I find where I think the song might be played, usually only if I have a similar tone too (clean, distorted or whatever it is). I will try to do this more, that sounds like a handy tip. Cheers!

Have someone play the note that you are singing as opposed to you matching the pitching someone else is playing. This is what I do with students who cant match the pitches yet

From that You will get to know what it "feels" like to match the pitches

 

[megafiddle]

I didn't use the video, but I detuned all the strings except for the E (and low B/5th string) and, while using the 5th fret low with open on the higher string, then open low with 7th fret higher strong, then 12th fret low with 7th fret higher string, and I managed to get very close, for the first time ever (though it took a long time!), I found that once I get to within a semitone (ish/estimated), I can't hear which one is higher than the other, but I can hear the wobble that you speak of if I play them together. I then run through the pentatonic scale and the main bassline of Limp Bizkit : Rearranged (because it can be played across 4 strings AND played in various locations across the fretboard, and tried to fine tune/tweak it, then when I checked it, the 3rd string was near perfect, and the higher two were slightly off but not miles out, so I think this method is definitely WIN Thanks mate, I owe you a pint. I'll aim to do this at least once a night on guitar and/or bass and track my progress.

I guess electronic tuners have made us (me!) lazy

Sounds like you have found a good first step.

Matching two tones is a matter of relative pitch also - in this case it is the unison interval. I would continue working with unison intervals (matching notes) on the same instrument until you can do it fairly well.

Because most all the notes on a bass (or guitar) are duplicated, there is a simple exercise you can use. Play a note on the E, A, or D string higher than the 5th fret. Select a fret at random, but remember which fret it is. Then without looking, try to find the same note on the next higher string. Since the matching note on the next higher string will always be 5 frets down, you have a simple way of determining if you were correct.

I also have a problem matching notes on different instruments, though in my case it is just the octave that I am unsure of - I get the note right. I believe this has to to do with a difference in some strong overtones between the two notes causing confusion. So it may help to roll off the treble and work mainly with notes that have stronger fundamentals. Using a single instrument or similar instruments helps because of this also.

At some point, when you are ready to move on, I would work on recognizing the same note in a different octave. The octave is the second simplest of the intervals. The unison interval is the simplest. You can use a simple exercise for this also. Play an open note on the E A, or D string and try to find the same octave note on one of the strings above. Again simply looking at the fret number will tell you if you were correct.

Something that may help also is to try imagining the note after you hear it. We are not always able to hear two notes simultaneously (they are much easier to match when we can). The better you can imagine the note, the better you can match it with another.

Anyway keep at it. If you have been playing and sounding good in spite of all this, then you have already done something pretty difficult.

-

 

[interp]

You were teaching people who could speak to speak Russian, they weren't people who needed to learn to speak.
I could sing along to a song all day, be in and out of the correct pitch and never know. When I record my vocals I think I sounded in key, at least I can get a take that has nothing that sounds nasty to me, but then I run pitch correction software on it, and everything warbles into something from a sci-fi movie! If I can't hear whether or not my voice is even in key or not I can't practice singing in key because I don't know! That's the point!

Let me explain - If I play a riff so much that I'm familiar with it, and then I play it and I hit the wrong note, I hear that I played a wrong note - so I know I'm not tone deaf, and I can hear that I played too high or too low. If you are not tone deaf, you are able to learn relative pitch, however I have 0 natural relative pitch, while most people appear to have at least some - just as some people have some ability to kick a ball at a goal and score, without training (while some are naturally amazing players and a very few miss the ball and fall over every time). Most people who pick up an instrument are people with a decent natural level of relative pitch, rather than people who start from almost nothing because it is much harder and takes a lot more perseverance (because I cannot match notes I have to find lots of ways around the fact), and so most likely the people who you have taught have SOME level of ability to KNOW when their voice is in key with the note, or if the note they play on the bass is the same note as the note that you just played, even if they aren't able to do much more than that. I want to be able to reach that basic level.

Let's use a closer analogy - new bassist "I want to know how to play bass!"
Teacher "Okay, play A# on the first fret on the third string, it's very basic, then open it to play A"
new bassist "So, do I put my finger on the metal things or in the middle? They're the frets right? How do I hold this?"

The student here is wanting something far more basic than the teacher expects, but if he was to respond "you clearly have decided that you can't and you don't want to put the effort in" - I put it to you, good sir, that you either don't understand what I'm asking here and brush it off as my laziness (though why would I come here and ask for help from musicians if I didn't want help with this?), you're unable to grasp what I'm asking, well, that's fine but there is no need to respond in that way - as a teacher, you should look at the needs of the student, not write that student off because you don't know how to respond to them.


The advice you gave is something that is good, once I can tell whether or not my notes are correct. I sing along to everything, and I assume I'm in key because I don't sound off to myself, but I honestly cannot tell if I am or not. I need to acquire that ability in order to use the exercise that you suggested.


I'll look that app up, thanks! I used to think that I must be tone deaf and looked into congenital amusia - I thankfully am not tone deaf, but I feel like I am! I can hear the difference between tones, I know when a pitch changes up or down (but not by what interval), I just don't have the ability to match the same note played on two different instruments, not even in the same octave! That said, if I play drones, the same note across octaves, I can hear that every note is the same across the octaves, as I'm playing it. If I was to listen to a succession of notes in other octaves and try to recognise which one was the same note an active higher/lower, I can't do so. I can check if a guitar is in tune by hitting the 5th fret and then the higher strong open and hearing if it is right, but I cannot tune a guitar using that as reference. I have tried and I have broken so many strings in the process

I apologize if you thought I was implying that you are lazy. That is not what I meant at all. However, I stand by my statement that you gave up too easily on the fundamental techniques for learning pitch matching, probably because you are making incorrect assumptions about the nature of learning (language or anything else.) You say that you want something much more basic than what the teacher expects, yet you decline to do what it takes to acquire those basic abilities. I submit that you have indeed decided that you cannot learn to match notes, and by doing so you've created a brick wall for yourself that you want others to help you find a way around. Sorry if that sounds harsh but that's what I get from your posts. Or perhaps I completely misunderstand what you are asking.

My reference to learning Russian had to do with learning to recognize and reproduce the SOUNDS of the Russian language, which differ significantly from English. This is exactly what this thread is about--learning to recognize and reproduce sounds. You say I was "teaching people who could speak to speak Russian, they weren't people who needed to learn to speak." They were people who needed to learn to speak *Russian*, a process that begins with learning to listen. Think about how you learned English. You knew no language at all and you started basically by listening to the language sounds all around you every day. That probably went on for about two years before you spoke your first intelligible word. Speaking starts with listening. Hearing pitch starts with listening.

I'm not a music teacher, but I've been playing music and working as a language teacher and interpreter for 45 years. One thing I've learned is that most people think they know how to listen. Most people are wrong.

 

[Barbaric.Eric]

I didn't use the video, but I detuned all the strings except for the E (and low B/5th string) and, while using the 5th fret low with open on the higher string, then open low with 7th fret higher strong, then 12th fret low with 7th fret higher string, and I managed to get very close, for the first time ever (though it took a long time!), I found that once I get to within a semitone (ish/estimated), I can't hear which one is higher than the other, but I can hear the wobble that you speak of if I play them together. I then run through the pentatonic scale and the main bassline of Limp Bizkit : Rearranged (because it can be played across 4 strings AND played in various locations across the fretboard, and tried to fine tune/tweak it, then when I checked it, the 3rd string was near perfect, and the higher two were slightly off but not miles out, so I think this method is definitely WIN Thanks mate, I owe you a pint. I'll aim to do this at least once a night on guitar and/or bass and track my progress.

I guess electronic tuners have made us (me!) lazy

So glad to hear this!! Keep in mind this won't be something you can lock in overnight, after 12 years I'm still finding myself getting stuck once and a while looking for super easy notes in a song or trying to tune by ear. But each little session of practice will add up in the end and make you more consistent at finding notes by ear.

You mentioned that it gets tough when you're within a semitone or so, I still come across this as well! I find that if your ear dulls (for lack of a better term) to the sound of each string and you can't tell which is higher, take the string you are tuning and give the tuning peg a half turn down and then immediately come right back to where you were and sometimes you can hear the difference between strings much better that way. Whenever I'm close like that and my ear dulls, I do this and most of the time I'll land right in the sweet spot. Maybe some of the more knowledgeable folk can chime in on this but it must have something to do with the note gradually raising in pitch until your brain clicks and you hear a match.

Regardless, I'm super happy to hear you're making progress! Grats!

 

[FuzzFacetious]

Thanks!

I learnt something while doing the same today - though today rather than use bass, I first used my 7 string guitar, and then a downtuned (c#) 6 string.
I had watched a video in this thread explaining that it's not an inability to hear, but an inability to listen: while tuning the 7 string, and noticing that, while sometimes I knew that the higher string that I was tuning was presently LOWER than the note I was searching for on the lower string, I was hearing higher, and it occurred to me that I'm listening and hearing the sound of the string, the more finely wound or the non-wound string itself, I was listening to the sound in full, the twang, the sound of the metal, and unable to focus purely on the TONE/NOTE produced... Is this a "thing" or am I imagining that?
Once that twigged, I was more conscious of what I was listening for - it wasn't a complete eureka moment as such but it's something to keep in mind as I listen for the notes, to try to block out what I shouldn't focus on.

I did find it a little harder to zone in on the correct note on the first guitar (7 string B/E standard) than on the bass or the downtuned C# standard 6 string, I did find that not only comparing the open string I was tuning to the 5th fret on the lower string helpful, but at times when I couldn't discern whether the note was higher or lower, I could play the 4th and 6th fret on the lower string and hear that the 5th string was at least the CLOSEST note to the open one, which sometimes was the closest I could get, and then checking it against a tuner, the note was right, but the needle was either wide over at the sharp or the flat... But the fact that I can get it close enough to at least register at the same note is a good thing, it now gives me two targets to aim for: getting the note nailed dead on, and reaching the correct note faster, rather than taking at least a few minutes on each one. I'm still miles away from being able to sing a note along (though I try just for the sake of getting used to doing it - you never know, it might even subconsciously help), but I at least feel a bit of accomplishment.

Thanks for the help people, I will write anything else up in here as I carry on practicing, in case this either helps others who want to learn this from the beginning as I am, or anyone who wants to teach people who have close to zero pitch to hear pitch.

 

[megafiddle]

...
I had watched a video in this thread explaining that it's not an inability to hear, but an inability to listen: while tuning the 7 string, and noticing that, while sometimes I knew that the higher string that I was tuning was presently LOWER than the note I was searching for on the lower string, I was hearing higher, and it occurred to me that I'm listening and hearing the sound of the string, the more finely wound or the non-wound string itself, I was listening to the sound in full, the twang, the sound of the metal, and unable to focus purely on the TONE/NOTE produced... Is this a "thing" or am I imagining that?
...

You may very well be hearing overtones in the note that are competing for your attention.

A single musical note consists of a fundamental frequency which we hear as the pitch of the note, and a series of overtones which we normally do not hear as individual or seperate tones. Instead these overtones contribute to the timbre (character) of the tone. The G string on a bass and the low G note on a guitar both have the same fundamental frequency, and therefore both have the same pitch. But each instrument has it's own unique set of overtone levels, which is why they sound different.

If these overtones are strong enough, they can be mistaken for the note's pitch. The 1st overtone is one octave above the actual note pitch, and if strong, can cause the note to sound as if it's an octave higher than it actually is. I believe this is why I sometimes get the octave wrong when comparing a piano to an acoustic guitar for example. The 2nd overtone is actually a different note - it's a perfect 5th above the octave. So a C note actually contains a G. But this overtone is not normally heard as a G unless it is very strong. Possibly this is part of what's making it difficult for you to hear pitch; you may be hearing too many pitches at once.

An electric instrument played at low volume through an amp can still produce an amazing amount of acoustic sound. The acoustic sound is almost all overtones, which could be adding to the problem. If that is what's occuring, it may help to listen through headphones if possible. And also roll off the treble to reduce the overtones. Not so easy with an acoustic guitar, obviously.

-

 

[FuzzFacetious]

That's interesting, I think you're right on the money there - the one time I tried to sing along to my old guitar teacher's playing, he told me that for the most part, I was roughly a 5th out but, while not 100% consistent, I was moving more of less with the instrument, and remaining mainly out of key and around a 5th out.

So it's more about learning to identify which part of the sound is the note I'm listening for, and ignoring the rest, right?

I would equate this to trying to make paint colour-match with a painted wooden wall, where the wall has much more to look at than just colour; there's the texture of the wood grain, the light causing some parts to appear lighter and some to appear darker, how shiny (glossy) or matt it is...etc etc. I would assume that everyone can instantly identify the objective colour of the wood, but it's perfectly possibly that some people might confuse other aspects of the visual noise with the actual colour of it, and because we might not understand what is going on with them, we might assume that they're colour blind or unable to distinguish shades of the same or similar colours.

Identifying the potential problem brings us part of the way to finding a solution - learning to identify which aspects of the sound are the tone and which are overtones.


Okay so I'll try that - through an amp sim with low treble, through headphones. Thanks for the tip

 

[FuzzFacetious]

Here's something handy I've found...

If you use a looper (G3 and B3 have a 40 sec looper) and record yourself playing a note blind, being sure not to have any way of knowing exactly which fret (and if you can avoid knowing which string, although that's harder) you're playing, play that note with a few quick short attack notes, leave a pause, play a few that you let ring out, then leave a gap and repeat a few times (this is because the attack of a note and the decay of a note change slightly in pitch, plus there is the affect of these overtones so playing both short and ringing notes and then leaving a space is important. Let that play over and over as you then hunt that note on the fretboard.

With the same tone, as well as having one or the other with distortion and the other clean, I find that I can more often than not find the note on the fret board, though it takes a long time. Once I find the note I think it is, I look at the fret board and see what the note was, and then I let the tuner hear the looped note to see if it's the same. I can ONLY do this for the exact note, I can't do this for the octave, but, hey, baby steps.

With the tuning by ear, I haven't really improved on the actual hearing, only on picking up new little techniques to aid me, however I am persevering. I can get each string tuned to within a semitone high or low, but then I can't hear whether it's higher or lower than the reference note (and sometimes I hear it as being higher when it's lower) but it's always within the threshold of registering on the tuner as being the correct note but sharp or flat, albeit quite far out more often than not.



I was noodling on the 7 string guitar and realised that I recognised what I was playing - what I was playing was the opening riff to KoRn's Helmet in the Bush - I listened to the song to check, and then to double check, looked up the tabs to be sure, and while KoRn tune a tone lower, I was playing the exact same frets/cords, just obviously a tone higher, but was playing it exactly as they play it.
I then proceeded to listen to the start of every song on that album except the bagpipe song, and Blind as I've memorised how to play that, knowing that early KoRn riffs are simple and all based around the same progressions of notes and 5ths, but I got everything very wrong when playing along, and then looking up the tabs. it's a different ball game, hearing a song going along, and hearing a single note repeating long enough to match it. I have on many occasions found out how to play a song just by recognising that I was playing it, but I can't just work out how to play it. I'm determined to get there though.


The "chorus" like sound of the two close but slightly out notes is handy, I'm trying to practice intentionally creating and hearing it, and then not having it (by playing the right note) to practice hearing it. I assume most people hear that as the horrible out of tune noise, although it sounds nice to me, like a chorus detune effect, so I need to reach to the point where it's jarring I guess.

Part of the problem is where not all of my instruments are fully set up in terms of intonation either, as they have been in storage for years and need me to replace the strings and set up the neck, bridge and intonation (and the acoustic guitar can't be adjusted except for the truss so I have no idea how to sort the action or intonation on that some of the 12th frets are have a semitone out!), and the intonation being off really doesn't help when you're trying to practice or tune the guitar with the higher frets... But still, with the instruments and frets that I can use, I feel like I've made EXTREMELY LITTLE progress, however, extremely little is better than nothing and it's early days.

I apologise if this is a little "dear diary" or blogger-like, but I hope it's useful for others who need this, or people who teach others.

 

[FuzzFacetious]

You must learn to "match pitch." Matching pitch is the fundamental building block skill of ear training. Try to sing along and match the pitch of everything you hear: birds chirping, the hum of the bathroom fan, a baby crying, and of course every song you hear on TV or the radio.

If you are having a hard time matching pitch singing, try whistling. For some reason I find that I can hear very easily whether or not my whistling is in tune (easier than my bass or my singing voice).

I have lots more ear training tips for hearing intervals, melodies, chords, etc. but first you have to learn to simply match pitch. Be patient and forgiving with yourself. It can take years to develop a good ear (though there are certainly some excellent teachers and courses out there that can speed up the process). The important thing is that you practice it a little bit every day. You'll get it eventually. Good luck!

If you think you can learn something you're probably right. If you think you can't learn it, you're definitely right. Sounds to me like you've decided you cannot learn this and are giving up before you really give it a good effort.

Your analogy to learning to read by writing a blog every day is WAY off. People are suggesting you "learn to read" by starting with learning the basic mechanics of "reading" (recognizing pitch). Until you do so you can't really say you've made a real effort.

Sorry to be blunt, but that's the truth.

Coming back to these posts, I have found a MINOR improvement in my ability to follow notes with my voice - I don't know still whether or not I'm singing the right note, and I assume that I never am, but I feel that as I sing along I am changing my pitch correctly relative to the riff that I'm listening to. One of my alarms to wake me up is a song with a great sounding heavy riff and as it comes on I hum/sing along to it and find that I'm able to notice my voice following it more closely than before, having spent about half an hour a night focusing on trying to match notes using the methods described in my last two posts.

As for knowing whether or not I'm singing the right note, I have no idea how to do that. If I get out a polyphonic tuner it's either picking up the music too, or if I mute that, I'm no longer singing to the music, so I don't know if I'm still singing the same notes that I was. Is there a trick to doing this?

The listening for wobbling in clashing-but-nearly-matching notes thing seems to work limitedly if I loop a bass note and try to match the note with my voice, as in, I can hear the bass begin to warble sometimes as I make noises along to it, but I honestly can't hear if my voice is matching, higher or lower, the sound of my voice is just way too different to the bass, I just can't seem to match it (YET ) . I will keep trying at random and hope that something develops, and when I have time, keep checking the links that people have put here, but in the mean time, any pointers that would help?

Thanks,

Dave