I hear people whine about playing in different keys all the time (Such as a C#), and I don't get it. Either I'm doing something wrong or I just get this concept and know my notes better than they do. If I were to play in the key of A minor, I could just play any note in the A minor scale, right? And the same for any other key. The piano player in my jazz class makes such a big deal out switching keys (pun not intended), and I'm wondering if there's something I'm not getting.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Playing in keys, hard ?
- Thread starter JamesMichael
- Start date
Yes, there's a whole load of stuff you're not getting, but I wouldn't worry about it. Keep playing and studying and it will become clear.
In Am, you don't just play any note in the Am scale at any point - you need to consider the harmony at different points in the tune (in other words, follow the chord changes). And changing keys for musical effect is not as simple as it sounds.
For example, here's a classic 70s song with an interesting key change (at 1:46 in this video). It sounds like the writer has made an almost totally random jump here, but it's actually anything but. Knowing how to do this and achieve the effect you want usually requires an understanding of the way harmony works.
In Am, you don't just play any note in the Am scale at any point - you need to consider the harmony at different points in the tune (in other words, follow the chord changes). And changing keys for musical effect is not as simple as it sounds.
For example, here's a classic 70s song with an interesting key change (at 1:46 in this video). It sounds like the writer has made an almost totally random jump here, but it's actually anything but. Knowing how to do this and achieve the effect you want usually requires an understanding of the way harmony works.
If that's your understanding of "playing in a key", then yeah. You're missing quite a bit.
Piano players and especially horn players have more difficulty playing in "odd" keys than string players. It is simply the nature of those instruments.
For example, a tenor sax plays the concert Bb major scale using just the main keys (buttons) of the instrument. Playing the concert B major scale involves using the side and pinky keys (buttons) with more hand contortions to play the scale. (FYI in sax land, the key in the mechanical device where the player puts their finger; not to be confused with the key of a song. Key also applies to piano players, which leads me to....)
On the piano, playing C major involves just the white keys. Playing Db major involves playing all of the black keys and fewer white ones.
On the bass, any major scale can be played in a box pattern that spans a few frets. The whole pattern can be moved up or down to change keys.
It takes a LOT of practice to be comfortable playing in all keys, and even more practice to play a familiar song in all keys. To test this out yourself, take some time to play the blues in all 12 keys. You'll quickly find out what keys you know and those you don't.
Good luck!
For example, a tenor sax plays the concert Bb major scale using just the main keys (buttons) of the instrument. Playing the concert B major scale involves using the side and pinky keys (buttons) with more hand contortions to play the scale. (FYI in sax land, the key in the mechanical device where the player puts their finger; not to be confused with the key of a song. Key also applies to piano players, which leads me to....)
On the piano, playing C major involves just the white keys. Playing Db major involves playing all of the black keys and fewer white ones.
On the bass, any major scale can be played in a box pattern that spans a few frets. The whole pattern can be moved up or down to change keys.
It takes a LOT of practice to be comfortable playing in all keys, and even more practice to play a familiar song in all keys. To test this out yourself, take some time to play the blues in all 12 keys. You'll quickly find out what keys you know and those you don't.
Good luck!
On a stringed instrument, no key is bad. Many do work better with open strings, but you could very easily play in any key. For other instruments, it is indeed tougher.
However, maybe your piano player could do some good by listening and playing instead of whining
It'll make them a better player
However, maybe your piano player could do some good by listening and playing instead of whining
It'll make them a better player
Some songs change keys, I really see no need except when it accomplishes something. Think about this. The vocalist normally decides what key they want. Why in the World would they want the song to move to another key? Now Jazz will do this more than other styles, however, here you have more solo instruments than just a vocalist, aka horns, sax, etc. and the horns, sax, etc. have keys they like to use - mostly the flat keys. Then there is that mood change - major is happy and minor is sad, so there are reasons to change, but, IMO there should be a reason for the change.
Moving on to what the other posts said about there being more to this..... I think you already understand this and was using a generalization in your post. If not read on.....
I'll give an example. The song is called out to be in A. {edit} Just saw your example is Am and I'm using A major, humor me.
Those playing melody can draw their melody notes from the A major scale as you said. However, your bass line should provide harmony and that is normally done with the chords made from the A major scale.
Which chords? The ones used in the chord progression - for this specific song. Lets assume that will be the classic ole I IV V7 progressive in the key of A.
I......IV.....V7
A.....D......E7
When the A chord is active in the song our bass line could contain the chord tones of the A chord, A, C#, E or we might play the A major pentatonic scale under the A chord, A, B, C#, E, F#. Or we could just play A notes, i.e. A, A, A, A, or the root and five, A-E-A-E, or the possibilities go on and on......... We want to harmonize what is happening in the melody. We do that by sharing like notes. If the melody line and the harmony line (bass line) share some like notes we harmonize (sound good together).
What I'm trying to point out is our bass line normally does not play random notes from the A major scale. We play specific notes from the A major scale in a groove that 1) harmonizes the melody, 2) maintains the beat and 3) calls attention to the chord changes. www.studybass.com goes into detail.
Have fun.
On a stringed instrument, no key is bad. Many do work better with open strings, but you could very easily play in any key. For other instruments, it is indeed tougher.
However, maybe your piano player could do some good by listening and playing instead of whining
How are your Eb minor chops?
onlyclave said:
Same as any. I actually like that key. I either play in 6th position, detune, or use my 5 string
Possible finger positions might be pretty similar for any key on a stringed instrument (just move the patterns up or down the neck). But that doesn't mean that all keys are equally easy to play in, imo.
I still find Ebm tricky with an unfamiliar chart on reading gigs - I'm forever forgetting to flatten the C in this key. Just a blind spot, I guess.
I still find Ebm tricky with an unfamiliar chart on reading gigs - I'm forever forgetting to flatten the C in this key. Just a blind spot, I guess.
I have no problem playing in different keys but sometimes note placement is just a tad more difficult to play smoothly. For instance.....September by EWF. I'm subbing this Saturday and they play this a half step down which dramatically changes they way I have to play it. Been playing in the original key for so long, it's gonna drive me nuts but I'll get through it. I was planning to do this gig on a 4 string but it looks like I'll have to bring my 5 string to compensate.
I know there are certain difficult keys w for brass and wind players
I know a certain number of piano players who came up reading music not for note and never improvisng or learning thory are totally intimidated by anything over 3 flats or 2 sharps. There's only the one place on a keyboard to reach a given note -- string players have some choices and once they learn a pattern that doesn't use open strings that pattern can be shifted elsewhere on a key change.
One fine exercise on piano is take a well known melody and transpose it to a different key -- root start. Really builds up a feel for each key. Not nearly the same exercise on a fretted instrument
{as a sidenote Irving Berlin, IIRC, had a piano that could shift keys but still let him play as if everything were in C -- the entire keyboard could be adjusted up or down -- similar to how a string player can approiach playing the same song in a differnt key.
I know a certain number of piano players who came up reading music not for note and never improvisng or learning thory are totally intimidated by anything over 3 flats or 2 sharps. There's only the one place on a keyboard to reach a given note -- string players have some choices and once they learn a pattern that doesn't use open strings that pattern can be shifted elsewhere on a key change.
One fine exercise on piano is take a well known melody and transpose it to a different key -- root start. Really builds up a feel for each key. Not nearly the same exercise on a fretted instrument
{as a sidenote Irving Berlin, IIRC, had a piano that could shift keys but still let him play as if everything were in C -- the entire keyboard could be adjusted up or down -- similar to how a string player can approiach playing the same song in a differnt key.
Really? I wonder what the range was? Interesting. Funny though...........I know quite a few keyboardists who transpose their synths all the time. Wouldn't think an entire piano would have this feature.
There really aren't any 'difficult' keys. It's just a matter of what you are used to and how well you know your instrument. True, the electric bass is one of the more unusual instruments out there in that it is symetrical, that is all major scales can have the same fingering as can minor scales and the modes. Still, one is better off knowing all the places to put the notes and knowing what notes are in all the scales.
If you are playing musicals you'll need to be ready to play in any key signature. Keys will change many times within a song for various dramatic effects or moods.
Oddly enough, Mr. Berlin could only play in the key of F#.
I believe that the range was almost the entire board; obviously you'd lose a few notes on the top or bottom depending on which way the keys were shifted relative to standard position.
- Jan 12, 2011
- 4,578
- 2,460
- Disclosures
- Artist, Trickfish Amplification Bartolini Emerging Artist, MTD Kingston Emerging Artist. Artist, Tsunami Cables
To me it's a great experience. The more you play with different singers the more you'll play the same songs but in different keys. I find sometimes while the singer is more comfortable singing in a given key, it absolutley kiils the joy of playing that song, especially when you have to play an awkward fingering or two, or choose a different octave for a given note, or range of notes. But hey, they are paying gigs, and you'll get a rep amongst singers to be the bass player to call. It's not hard to learn at all. It's just different.
The transposing piano mentioned earlier was more common in those days than we think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_piano
I've read about then being used by rehearsal pianists or pianists who helped singers audition for shows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_piano
I've read about then being used by rehearsal pianists or pianists who helped singers audition for shows.
Know this, to start:
A major scale is a 7-note scale in which the half-steps occur only between 3 and 4, and between 7 and 8 (or, that is between the first note of the scale and the 7th note). You can see it on piano in the key of C if you begin on C and play only the white notes. It's the very reason there are no black notes between E and F, and between B and C.
The "relative minor" of C is Am. The relative minor uses the same notes as the major scale it's related to, and it begins on the 6th note of the major scale. So, for the relative minor of C, begin on A and play A to A on the white keys (also called the "natural minor scale"). Notice that the Am natural minor scale has its half-steps between 2 and 3, and between 5 and 6 (if we consider A being "1").
A major scale is a 7-note scale in which the half-steps occur only between 3 and 4, and between 7 and 8 (or, that is between the first note of the scale and the 7th note). You can see it on piano in the key of C if you begin on C and play only the white notes. It's the very reason there are no black notes between E and F, and between B and C.
The "relative minor" of C is Am. The relative minor uses the same notes as the major scale it's related to, and it begins on the 6th note of the major scale. So, for the relative minor of C, begin on A and play A to A on the white keys (also called the "natural minor scale"). Notice that the Am natural minor scale has its half-steps between 2 and 3, and between 5 and 6 (if we consider A being "1").
Yea, they are 'related' by key signature.
Another term used with major/minor scales is 'parallel minor'. In that case both scales start on the same note, but have a different key sig. Like C major and C minor.
