Post DI tone shaping

[DaveParker39]

So recently I gigged my Fender Rumble 800 and sound guy wanted to run direct which eliminates my ability to use the amp’s onboard drive and eq tweaks. The rumble has a “pre preamp” di (basically a thru) and a “post preamp” speaker emulated di that comes after the preamp/drive.

I wanted to use the “post preamp” di but it sound guy didn’t like it… I think it was just a little hot, but what I am wondering is… is there something you can insert AFTER a speaker emulated DI out from a preamp that would potentially give additional tone shaping options to “tidy” up the signal from the bassists end but still have the benefits of the amp’s onboard preamp (rather than just the straight DI)?

Hopefully that made sense!

 

[CatOnTheBass]

DI always gets plugged into a mic preamp or channel strip.

You have lots of options, from $100 Behringer to $4,000 Neve or API.

If the sound guy is looking for a 'pre' signal then he will hate this idea (of you running your own channel strip, on stage). Adding more gear to your signal chain is the opposite of what this sound guy is asking you to do. He wants you to stop 'tweaking' your sound (not tweak it more). You're looking for a technological solution to a communication probelm.

 

[Hoochie Coochie Man]

The specification for the Fender Rumble 800 Head line out is listed as: "Max level: +7dBU"

The specification for the Rumble Stage 800 line out is listed as: "Maximum level: +4.9dBV"

(Note that one is in dBV, and one is in dBU. These two different ways of stating the level may be confusing. These two levels are actually about the same).

If the only objection is that the level is too high, you can add an xlr in-line attenuator, xlr in-line attenuators,

I wonder if the guy had some other objection, and told you some BS about the level just to do it his way without having to have a conversation with you about it.

If I were running sound, and you wanted to send me a post di out from a Rumble 800, I would work with it.

 

[klattman]

I suppose if their ideas of bass is different than yours they want you straight to the desk so they can make you sound exactly like everyone else with too much compression and a dramatic mid scoop so nobody can hear you (I’ve me those sound folks).

I only provide them a post DI because my amp and/or interface is part of my instrument.
I do keep xlr attenuators in my bag because sometimes it’s too hot for them. Maybe that was the issue?

 

[bassbrad]

Bass amp and preamp DI are hit and miss - some are great, most are poor or awful. So many sound persons have had a bad experience that most will insist on using their own familiar or house DI. Plus the adjustments you make to your amp may be contrary or even overpowering for FOH or even compete with their mission. This is why so many are using preamp/DI or a stand alone DI.

Since I am also a sound engineer I understand this and design my pedalboard out to be FOH ready. I also take a popular DI with me in case, a Radial JDI.

 

[Danny C]

Every sound company/engineer I've been working with are always happy with my DI out of the Mesa WD800. It's a great DI. Their other option is out of my Jad Freer Capo. Most don't mind that I give them post EQ as they trust what I'm giving them and find it easiest to work with. Some request pre EQ and most of them I will give that to except a couple that just don't get it and I give them post and they think it's pre and are amazed at themselves about how easy it was to dial in the bass. Kinda like the Lee Sklar producer switch.

 

[carsonchilders]

I think we just had a similar thread to this. If you have tone shaping on a pedalboard, give him a DI out of the pedalboard. If you're only using your amps DI, I would argue that maybe the sound guy is right to get a clean signal. Because you're tweaking EQ into a speaker cabinet to see how it reacts. When you take that speaker cabinet out of the equation, your EQ moves could have some unintended consequences.

I personally have a pedal setup with a noble preamp with a wonderful foundational tone. You take the DI from the noble before the amp, because the amp gets EQ'd by me to the room. I generally refuse to give a Di signal pre pedalboard because the pedalboard is what makes "my tone" "my tone"

So that would mean your post DI tone shaping would be your amp's EQ

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

So recently I gigged my Fender Rumble 800 and sound guy wanted to run direct which eliminates my ability to use the amp’s onboard drive and eq tweaks. The rumble has a “pre preamp” di (basically a thru) and a “post preamp” speaker emulated di that comes after the preamp/drive.

I wanted to use the “post preamp” di but it sound guy didn’t like it… I think it was just a little hot, but what I am wondering is… is there something you can insert AFTER a speaker emulated DI out from a preamp that would potentially give additional tone shaping options to “tidy” up the signal from the bassists end but still have the benefits of the amp’s onboard preamp (rather than just the straight DI)?

Hopefully that made sense!

That's done at the board

 

[MultiScaleMale]

What do you want to tweak about the DI signal that is heard out in the venue, not what you are hearing on stage? It's not like you know or are getting signals from the crowd that you need to bump 300 Hz. Tweak the amp to get the monitoring you want, but send something consistent to help FOH get something that fits the venue. Your tone really doesn't matter much in a live performance. If you are in the studio, obsess over tone. Live, get a tone that fits the mix and venue and worry about what you play. Timing an note selection is far more important than achieving the tone in your head.

 

[Dust2Dust]

Asking for myself here (a noob to pedal boards hoping not to derail the thread) if I buy a Fly rig 2 would it be ok if I'm ever in this situation?

Edit: Nevermind. I just saw a comment that said the compressor doesn't squash very much

 

[DaveParker39]

What do you want to tweak about the DI signal that is heard out in the venue, not what you are hearing on stage? It's not like you know or are getting signals from the crowd that you need to bump 300 Hz. Tweak the amp to get the monitoring you want, but send something consistent to help FOH get something that fits the venue. Your tone really doesn't matter much in a live performance. If you are in the studio, obsess over tone. Live, get a tone that fits the mix and venue and worry about what you play. Timing an note selection is far more important than achieving the tone in your head.

I understand that bass players are capable of going right into the board via DI and letting that be the “tone” but the songs we do lose a decent amount of pop when I am not able to use drive (in this case from my amp) and fuzz… I guess I will just have to hope he was having technical difficulties or was just stubborn in not wanting me to use my post eq signal. I guess in the future will keep my sansamp handy.

 

[DaveParker39]

I think we just had a similar thread to this. If you have tone shaping on a pedalboard, give him a DI out of the pedalboard. If you're only using your amps DI, I would argue that maybe the sound guy is right to get a clean signal. Because you're tweaking EQ into a speaker cabinet to see how it reacts. When you take that speaker cabinet out of the equation, your EQ moves could have some unintended consequences.

I personally have a pedal setup with a noble preamp with a wonderful foundational tone. You take the DI from the noble before the amp, because the amp gets EQ'd by me to the room. I generally refuse to give a Di signal pre pedalboard because the pedalboard is what makes "my tone" "my tone"

So that would mean your post DI tone shaping would be your amp's EQ

Yes, in this case my amp volume was fully down, so I was just getting feedback from him and he didn’t want the post preamp/emulated speaker out, which meant even if I turned on the OD, no one would have heard it because i was going straight di.
Perhaps just bad luck that day.

 

[eddododo]

Okay so on the one hand, it’s ‘reasonable’ for a sound guy to want as pure of a signal as possible, and by pure I mean he doesn’t want an eq dramatic enough to make his own tweaking difficult.

on the other hand, I’ve had sound guys who stamped their foot and whined about similar situations but where I was running my EQ flat anyway; the lesson is that some sound guys just can’t be bothered, and the very idea that a bassist may want or need to function like an instrument and a musical voice, rather than ‘ha durr low notes go boom’ draws their ire and disgust.

If you really like to shape the EQ dramatically, then you need to upgrade your approach to something more sophisticated- in your case, it sounds as simple as just adding a drive pedal.

If you run your amp with everything at noon or at least close, then you should simply talk to the sound guy and emphasize that the drive sound is a key component of your sound. If they’re a butt about it, then run it post eq anyway. They’re frankly not likely to be able to tell that your eq isn’t perfectly neutral if they’re the kinda sound guy who doesn’t want the bassist to bother them.

the other solution is for them to mic the cab. This is a perfectly good solution and yet plenty of sound guys, again, inexplicably feel that bass deserves that kind of attention and consideration.

if they’re just not playing ball, but your eq is pretty neutral, then screw them, give them the post signal anyway.

The biggest takeaway is that you need to not only communicate, but communicate clearly and simply; make it clear that the drive is part of the sound, and that your eq isn’t crazy- sound guys are busy and who knows what they’re getting paid, and it’s worth it to at least try to make it easy for them. If they’re not going to meet you halfway after that, then stop asking permission

 

[DaveParker39]

I wonder if the guy had some other objection, and told you some BS about the level just to do it his way without having to have a conversation with you about it.

If I were running sound, and you wanted to send me a post di out from a Rumble 800, I would work with it.

He may simply not have wanted to deal with me, as we were the opening act

I suppose if their ideas of bass is different than yours they want you straight to the desk so they can make you sound exactly like everyone else with too much compression and a dramatic mid scoop so nobody can hear you (I’ve me those sound folks).

I only provide them a post DI because my amp and/or interface is part of my instrument.
I do keep xlr attenuators in my bag because sometimes it’s too hot for them. Maybe that was the issue?

Could be!

Bass amp and preamp DI are hit and miss - some are great, most are poor or awful. So many sound persons have had a bad experience that most will insist on using their own familiar or house DI. Plus the adjustments you make to your amp may be contrary or even overpowering for FOH or even compete with their mission. This is why so many are using preamp/DI or a stand alone DI.

Since I am also a sound engineer I understand this and design my pedalboard out to be FOH ready. I also take a popular DI with me in case, a Radial JDI.

I will begin bringing my sansamp

Okay so on the one hand, it’s ‘reasonable’ for a sound guy to want as pure of a signal as possible, and by pure I mean he doesn’t want an eq dramatic enough to make his own tweaking difficult.

on the other hand, I’ve had sound guys who stamped their foot and whined about similar situations but where I was running my EQ flat anyway; the lesson is that some sound guys just can’t be bothered, and the very idea that a bassist may want or need to function like an instrument and a musical voice, rather than ‘ha durr low notes go boom’ draws their ire and disgust.

If you really like to shape the EQ dramatically, then you need to upgrade your approach to something more sophisticated- in your case, it sounds as simple as just adding a drive pedal.

If you run your amp with everything at noon or at least close, then you should simply talk to the sound guy and emphasize that the drive sound is a key component of your sound. If they’re a butt about it, then run it post eq anyway. They’re frankly not likely to be able to tell that your eq isn’t perfectly neutral if they’re the kinda sound guy who doesn’t want the bassist to bother them.

the other solution is for them to mic the cab. This is a perfectly good solution and yet plenty of sound guys, again, inexplicably feel that bass deserves that kind of attention and consideration.

if they’re just not playing ball, but your eq is pretty neutral, then screw them, give them the post signal anyway.

The biggest takeaway is that you need to not only communicate, but communicate clearly and simply; make it clear that the drive is part of the sound, and that your eq isn’t crazy- sound guys are busy and who knows what they’re getting paid, and it’s worth it to at least try to make it easy for them. If they’re not going to meet you halfway after that, then stop asking permission

that makes sense. I do think communication was part of the problem here

 

[el murdoque]

If you want a say in this every time, you need to pour in a bit of thought and create a signal that is good to go from the FOH person's view. That usually means you're allowed some gentle EQ, all the compression you want, LPF/HPF and/or speaker sim, plus of course the drives and modulation you desire.

Make sure there are no sudden jumps or drops in volume. Make sure no frequencies are hugely bloated or completely filtered, give them something to work with - but make it something that will already sound okay after all they did was set the gain.

Always remember three things:
1. Just because it sounds good through your rig does not entail it'll sound good through FOH
2. A mixing desk is not a sewage plant. If poop goes in, poop comes out.
3. The FOH person is responsible for the sound out front. Therefore, it is one of the two most important people to you (the other being the one that pays the wages). Get on their good side.

A good and motivated FOH person can and will make basically anything happen.
A mediocre FOH person will make your bass (and band) sound good if the raw material you supply is easy to work with, but struggle when you make things harder than they need to be.
A bad FOH person will ruin the sound no matter what.

 

[carsonchilders]

Yes, in this case my amp volume was fully down, so I was just getting feedback from him and he didn’t want the post preamp/emulated speaker out, which meant even if I turned on the OD, no one would have heard it because i was going straight di.
Perhaps just bad luck that day.

Using your amp head with the volume off at a gig is a really, really odd way to do it. There’s some disconnect here somewhere.

 

[BassyBill]

You are experiencing CFSG syndrome (Control Freak Sound Guy). Best thing to do, in my experience, is just let him have his own little way and make him happy. If you try to reason with him, he will become petulant and nuke your tone horribly FOH, or make you completely inaudible. It sucks, I know, but there it is.

 

[Guitalia]

Using your amp head with the volume off at a gig is a really, really odd way to do it. There’s some disconnect here somewhere.

I read the "my amp volume was fully down" description as referring to the amp's status during the soundcheck, not during the performance.

 

[DaveParker39]

Using your amp head with the volume off at a gig is a really, really odd way to do it. There’s some disconnect here somewhere.

It wasn’t off… I have a combo, and I turned the volume down so I could hear through the monitors what the audience was hearing and do what I could with what little I had (basically my onboard tone controls and my compressor) to get a sound that wasn’t total crap in the mix.

Truthfully, if I had known we were going DI only and sound Guy didn’t want me to use the eq or speaker sim on my amp, I would have grabbed my sansamp instead of my amp and saved myself a trip to the car.

I think an XLR attenuator might be a good thing to have in my bag. When I run direct into my own PA from my amp it’s fine but I do have to turn down the input gain on that channel a decent amount compared to my mic or my axe fx.

 

[joel the bass player]

My Mesa TT has two DIs, one pre, one post everything. Funny thing is when they argue about taking the post when I have a pedalboard with all kinds of other stuff (including preamps), but they really don't want the amps sound for some reason...

Some are just set in their ways, and we should be lucky they aren't forcing you to plug into their house DI that looks like it has been beat within inches of its life.