Practice without Bass

[cassanova]

I think its quite possable to practice without your bass.

There are different aspects to practicing. You can practice sight reading without having a bass in hand.

As said earlier, the ideas start in your head. You can hear ideas in your head and create it all in your head before even picking up a bass.

You can also practice music theory without ever picking up your bass.

 

[George Looney]

Originally posted by Christina Fitzgerald


blablabla ...

Sometimes it's even more fun without the bass, as it can tend to get in the way of what you're really trying to accomplish.

What are you saying ? That someone like Gary Willis has no idea what he's talking about ???

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

It was an attempt at humor, albeit a stupid and sophomoric one. But you must admit, you did have a couple of SERIOUS straight lines written into that post. I guess I've just seen one too many Marx brothers movies to resist the temptation. No harm intended.

 

[stephanie]

We can't have a bass in our hands 24 hours a day, but that doesn't mean that when we set that bass down that we stop learning, right? There's lots of things, as mentioned previously, that can be done without a bass, so I won't repeat.

Personally, I practice inside my head all day long (seriously! ). I even go to bed thinking about the bass, saying scales to myself (almost like counting sheep ), etc. The scales get imprinted in my brain. I hear a song and I listen closely to what's going on with it. I spend quite an amount of time here on TB reading and learning....

I think what Jeff Berlin is trying to imply in his disagreement, albeit harshly, is that nothing takes the place of sitting down with a bass in your hands. I can say those scales over and over in my head all day long, but if I can't play them on the bass, if I can't apply them to my music, what good is it going to do me?

 

[cassanova]

Originally posted by stephanie
I think what Jeff Berlin is trying to imply in his disagreement, albeit harshly, is that nothing takes the place of sitting down with a bass in your hands. I can say those scales over and over in my head all day long, but if I can't play them on the bass, if I can't apply them to my music, what good is it going to do me?

I was thinking he meant something like that myself. Mostly implying that you cant physically practice the bass.

In a sense what Jeff said is right, there is no way you can get better on your bass unless you actually pick it up and play/practice it. (or something to that effect)

 

[Garrett Mireles]

Today in math class I drew a diagram of a fretboard on a piece of paper, and darkened the frets that make up the modes of C major. If that isn't practicing, I don't know what is.

Like it's been said, you can mentally practice w/o your bass, but not physically. Unless you slap...you can go slap a wall or something

 

[wulf]

Originally posted by cassanova
In a sense what Jeff said is right, there is no way you can get better on your bass unless you actually pick it up and play/practice it. (or something to that effect)

No... I think it's wrong. If I spend a week concentrating on playing guitar, there's every chance that I'm going to have improved when I pick up my bass again. Likewise, if I take a few hours closely listening to a Beethoven symphony, score in hand, I'll probably have improved as a bassist before I pick up my instrument again.

I would agree as far as saying that you're not going to get better without making any effort - and I don't think we're positing the situation of never physically touching your bass but still improving over a course of several years - but on a day to day basis I think it can sometimes be more profitable to spend a little while away from your instrument in exactly the same way that thinking laterally can help you come up with better solutions to a problem.

Wulf

 

[ConU]

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Keep in mind, this is the same person who claims that using a metronome will actually make your time worse. I believe a grain of salt, or perhaps a block of the the stuff roughly the size of Utah, is in order here.

I believe he meant misproper use of the metronome....i.e:some teachers insisting on students playing any and all exercises to a click regardless of whether they have learned the exercise yet.Go listen around the practice modules,players struggling to find the notes on the staff and neck with,click,click,click going in the background.Jeffs point was the metronome is a tool to solidify exercises well absorbed.(can you tell I'm a Jeff Berlin fan,and I take it your not)
Also if memory serves me correctly,he was dismissing hand exercisers and perfect pitch courses etc. as useless exercises away from the instrument.Everything I ever read that he wrote expounds the virtues of musical study with and without your bass as long as it's based on sound musical principles.
He inspired me as a 25 year old working(illiterate)bassist to go back to school.4 1/2 years later I have a BA in music,will begin a masters programme next year and am light years ahead of where I was as a musician then.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by ConU


I believe he meant misproper use of the metronome....i.e:some teachers insisting on students playing any and all exercises to a click regardless of whether they have learned the exercise yet.Go listen around the practice modules,players struggling to find the notes on the staff and neck with,click,click,click going in the background.Jeffs point was the metronome is a tool to solidify exercises well absorbed.(can you tell I'm a Jeff Berlin fan,and I take it your not)

Actually, I think he's a brilliant player, and for the most part from what I could see from his forum here, a nice guy. But on the point of metronomes, I disagree with most of what he said. There was one thread in particular where he insisted that playing with a metronome would make your time worse, no matter what, and that he could demonstrate why in person but not over the internet. The only part of Jeff's persona that I'm "not a fan of" is his penchant for making big sweeping statements like that and then getting frustrated when many people disagree with them. If you'll remember, when he and Dannnn Glennnnn left, they deleted all of their posts on the way out the door, which many found somewhat childish. But I don't think any of this means he's a bad player or a bad guy...


Also if memory serves me correctly,he was dismissing hand exercisers and perfect pitch courses etc. as useless exercises away from the instrument.Everything I ever read that he wrote expounds the virtues of musical study with and without your bass as long as it's based on sound musical principles.
He inspired me as a 25 year old working(illiterate)bassist to go back to school.4 1/2 years later I have a BA in music,will begin a masters programme next year and am light years ahead of where I was as a musician then.

I think that's great. Congratulations.

 

[ConU]

I was'nt here when he was,sorry I missed it.Here is the article I was referring to.
Bass Player June'95
The way many people use a metronome today creates an environment that prevents improvement.
Why?Because if you have'nt learned your exercises,practicing with a metronome will cause you to struggle to play in time rather than play the right notes.This is counterproductive.
If you are'nt ready to play up to tempo,using a metronome is torture.As I've said before you have to practice slowly.Let me expand that to say you have to practice slowly and sometimes out of time.You need to look at the notes and rhythms at your own pace,not the metronomes.
By the way,metronomes do not teach you good time."Time",in this sense,refers to how we hear rhythm,usually based on some form of the quarter,eighth,or 16th note.Good time comes from experimenting with these rhythms through regular practice and then experimenting with the up and downbeat.
You are practically never required to play metronomically correct,except when recording to a click track.You are however always required to play with good time,good feel,,and good note choices.
Metronomes are designed to help a musician keep time while playing exercises or pieces they have already learned.If you have'nt learned the music,stop making your practicing painful.Put the metronome in the closet and then really learn some music."

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by ConU
I was'nt here when he was,sorry I missed it.Here is the article I was referring to.
Bass Player June'95
The way many people use a metronome today creates an environment that prevents improvement.
Why?Because if you have'nt learned your exercises,practicing with a metronome will cause you to struggle to play in time rather than play the right notes.This is counterproductive.
If you are'nt ready to play up to tempo,using a metronome is torture.As I've said before you have to practice slowly.Let me expand that to say you have to practice slowly and sometimes out of time.You need to look at the notes and rhythms at your own pace,not the metronomes.
By the way,metronomes do not teach you good time."Time",in this sense,refers to how we hear rhythm,usually based on some form of the quarter,eighth,or 16th note.Good time comes from experimenting with these rhythms through regular practice and then experimenting with the up and downbeat.
You are practically never required to play metronomically correct,except when recording to a click track.You are however always required to play with good time,good feel,,and good note choices.
Metronomes are designed to help a musician keep time while playing exercises or pieces they have already learned.If you have'nt learned the music,stop making your practicing painful.Put the metronome in the closet and then really learn some music."

That's cool, and kind of what he said here. But what started all of the "metronome debate" was when he said things like,

"Why?Because if you have'nt learned your exercises,practicing with a metronome will cause you to struggle to play in time rather than play the right notes.This is counterproductive. If you are'nt ready to play up to tempo,using a metronome is torture.As I've said before you have to practice slowly"

The obvious thing this statement leaves out is the notion that you don't have to set your metronome to the intended eventual tempo when you start. No one is arguing that slow practice is bad, only that "out of time" practice is more counterproductive than productive. Many folks feel that it is counterproductive to practice the notes of a piece of music without a concept of the rhythm that they are supposed to fit into, that's all. I personally feel that in order to become a better player, it is best to practice a holistic approach to any new music...in other words, all music should be approached with the sound of the music in mind, and this always includes rhythmic context. If you're working on "Donna Lee", this means setting the metronome at whatever ridiculously slow tempo you need and work on playing the entirety of the music - including phrasing and articulation - at that tempo and then gradually speed it up. The big issue a lot of folks had with Jeff's statements was that it was too easy for beginners to construe them as meaning "metronomes are not a valuable tool for improving your sense of time", which I and many others believe could not be less true.

 

[ConU]

Apologies for going on about it,i know it's already been discussed(I'll quit after this post)I just find the two views fascinating.
Feb.'97
"Any educator who says you must practice in time is doing you a great disservice.It really does depend on the situation-but I do know for certain that it's not an absolute.By trying to practice in time,you're giving the information in the music you're reading second priority.Learning out of time,on the other hand,will allow you to learn the information well enough to play it in time.(You may be interested to know playing in time is automatically built into the playing experience once the practice experience has been done correctly.)"

I've read Kenny Werner say essentially the same thing.

 

[Wrong Robot]

ALL THE TIME.

In AP music theory, whenever we cover a new topic, or do sight singing excercises. I imagine what it would be like to play it, then as soon as I'm done with that class(last class of day), I go to my bass and work out the minor details.

whenever I am writing a song in my head(almost always) I picture exactly what notes I would be playing on my bass, and I picture myself playing them.

If I'm learning a tough song, Like chromatic fantasy...I often go through the fingerings picturing the frets as my fingers move to them, it really helps solidify it in my mind.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by ConU
Apologies for going on about it,i know it's already been discussed(I'll quit after this post)I just find the two views fascinating.
Feb.'97
"Any educator who says you must practice in time is doing you a great disservice.It really does depend on the situation-but I do know for certain that it's not an absolute.By trying to practice in time,you're giving the information in the music you're reading second priority.

And this is where I disagree strongly with the above. Almost all music exists against a real or implied rhythmic framework, and it is this that should be kept in mind when practicing. You can phrase with or against the time, you can play on top of it, right on it, or behind it, but you are always doing something in relation to it. When I hear people talking about how practicing with a metronome produces a stiff time feel, all I can say is that this might be true, but only if the person in question doesn't understand how to practice with a metronome.

In classical music, the term "rubato" is often mistakenly taken to mean "freely", or "not in time". In fact, the derivation of the word means to "borrow" or "steal" from the time - the unspoken assumption being that what is borrowed should be given back, or at the very least, that one is "borrowing" or "stealing" from something concrete and quantifiable. I think this is the essence of the argument between the two sides.

Learning out of time,on the other hand,will allow you to learn the information well enough to play it in time.(You may be interested to know playing in time is automatically built into the playing experience once the practice experience has been done correctly.)"

I know what he's saying, but I'd sooner say that, "Learning in time,on the other hand,will allow you to learn the information well enough to play it in or against the time .(You may be interested to know playing with and/or against time is automatically built into the playing experience once the practice experience has been done correctly.)"

Semantics? Maybe.

 

[ConU]

Thanks for the insights,I much appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts with me.

 

[IVIudvayne]

i think what Jaco and some other people meant by practicing without a bass is like studying modes and music theory... i know for sure that that is part of what Jaco meant because he didnt become a great player by practicing and playing things on his bass... he bacame a truly great player when he learned al he could about musci theory and what he wanted to learn about the bass...

 

[rangolf]

Although I agree that you need your bass to practice everything, but while I'm sittin' in traffic or catch a smoke break at work, I'm alway's thinking of scales, song's I've heard that I want to learn or comment's or tip's I've learned from various sources, i.e. Talk Bass other player's, etc. I'm a rookie & people say i'm lucky to be doing so good after such a short time. I say, the more I practice, the luckier I get !!! All the best, R.

 

[LM Bass]

My take on this one is yes, absolutely!

When I am learning something new, I always read it over and practicing hearing the intervals, rhythms, harmony etc. I think about fingerings, bowing, dynamics, articulation, shifting etc. Invalid Link Removed really helped me to understand the value of this kind of working in advance of picking the bass up to play. It really cuts down on practice time, and gets me very focused before I start playing.

LM

 

[sedgdog]

I attended Jeff's One-Week Intensive this past March. Jeff is one of the nicest people I have ever met in the music industry and he very much walks his talk. While he comes off in magazine articles as out spoken I found him just very passionate about teaching what he has found to be very effective concepts. Jeff proves much of what he talks about at the school and welcomes debate. Most people who have issues with what he says take his comments out of context. Think - can a person improve his golf swing without a club in his hand? If your looking for an eye opener check out his One-Week Intensive.

 

[Uncle Fat]

Think - can a person improve his golf swing without a club in his hand?

I'm not a golfer, but I'd imagine that while he can't improve his swing, he can improve his overall game in other ways that don't involve holding the club. Things like working out the muscles in his back and legs, and improving his distance judgement come to mind imediately.
The same is true for the bass. You'd have a hard time building better technique without your instrument, but you can do other things to become a better overall player.