Preamps for accurate tone/recording?

[fokof]

Has anyone used this generation and the newest comparatively? Is there an obvious and REAL audible difference between the two?

I wouldn't mind "upgrading" if it is in FACT an upgrade. I don't like the way the new plastic model is for several reasons.

It's PLASTIC and it doesn't seem to be aimed at live performance. If you are going to use it for performance, you must have to purchase a separate controller with respect to easy floor operated patch switching and expression.

I never tried the first vbass so I can't compare.
I don't mind that the VB99 is in plastic because unlike the original vbass , it never touches the floor, like a synth or a preamp ,it's either in a case or on a stand. I also have a FC300 wich is on the floor. Build like a tank.The combo of both makes it a VERY GOOD "live" weapon.

For what you want to accomplish , you have the perfect tool with the Vbass. Not a lot of stuff out there can give you such variety of tones.
It's not "perfect", not the same thing as what it's supposed to emulate , an emulation can't be the same thing, (in theory yes but that's another thread ) but you probably don't have the budget to buy yourself all the basses and all the amps it emulates anyways.

Jehos have a good point too with your reference.
I don't know with what you listen your DAW through, but try to tweak you vbass patches through that reference as well......

 

[Charling]

It's a little bit sad, boo hoo and all, but nothings easy. I guess I have just become somewhat spoiled with the v-bass. It's wonderful to have 4 or 5 different comprehensive high quality tones from the same instrument. Especially when you are the type of bassist that does not like how playing different basses feels. I just thought with respect to recorded "image clarity" that a really nice transparent preamp might get those tones to my hard drive in a more accurately successful sense. I guess in some silly sense I was thinking that "quality preamp" translated to a magic audio signal replicator.

hehe, don't worry man!

firstly, a good DI will match your bass' impedance to that of the interface, thats exactly what they are designed for, impedance matching and signal balancing. So a preamp is not necessarily needed, but pretty much all preamps have an xlr/line level output, which pretty much does the job of a di box, as long as the pre amp is designed to accept instrument signals to start with! ie you will still need a DI box to use a recording pre such as those on your mentioned emu interface or any of the huge array of cheap>pricey mic pres out there.

I would say that emu interface is fine to start with, if you haven't got an interface to record to already what are you using? the stock computer soundcard? if so then that is a big hurdle to overcome, a cheap interface will allow you to find a great tone before you upgrde, but a lowest of the low entry level card will degrade the signal A LOT!

economies of scale quickly come into play, a computers inbuilt soundcard=rubbish, a soundblaster=bad, a cheap interface-=pretty good to ok, a decent interface=good and so on, with the improvement in quality getting less the more you spend.

As for feeling sad, don't worry man! I felt the same the first time I ws left to do a session in the studio I work at, I was sure that with £100,000 of pres and £100,000 of compressors then I would easily get the best out of all the instruments, how wrong I was! it sounded ok, you could tell that the instruments had been captured well but it was far from the audio nirvana I had expected. it goes to show that the gear is just the tool, there is no magic ticket to getting a good sound, just good ears and a bagfull of techniques. It can be disheartening, but also very exciting, if we could buy our way to a great sounding recording then all the super talented recording engineers out there would be out of a job! it justifes their talent, just like an amazing sounding band justifies THEIR talent. I'd be even sadder if it was a world where you could buy gear and produce records that sound like your favourites straight away!

you are right in thinking that a good pre will more accurately capture your tones, but the imprtant point is CAPTURE, it will only make a copy of what you give it, audio recording is a very simple world in a lot of ways, BS In, BS out if you know what I mean!

maybe its worth getting a demo of a program like amplitube SVX, that way you can record your bass + modelling from v-bass direct and then add speaker cab emulation from the svx plugin. make sure you bypass the amp sim. That way you may get closer to the sound you hear from your bass rig.

 

[electrickbass]

Hmm, reading through the rest of this thread (probably should have done that before I posted), it seems like you're missing a couple fundamental things here:

1. Your monitoring situation is somehow flawed if what you're listening to when you record isn't what you hear during playback. My home system is pretty basic--signal -> mixer -> Apogee Duet -> iMac. Monitoring is iMac -> Apogee Duet -> KRK Rok-It 5's and a KRK 10" sub. To record bass I've got an Eden head with the direct out going to the mixer. When I play, I hear signal coming out the KRKs. What I'm playing when I record and what I hear back when I push play are the exact same thing. When I hear a good tone coming out of the KRKs, I know it will record exactly like that.

2. You can't capture a Marcus Miller or Flea tone using a pedal, period. Especially if you're a fingerstyle player. You either learn to slap like them, or you find a different sound. I find it kind of funny that you posted earlier about "the tone is in your hands", yet complained when some pedal didn't give you the tone some other player has.

Finally, I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say you want an "accurate" recording. Accurate relative to what? If you want accurate, just get a decent DI, plug it straight into your e-mu, and record that. It's probably not going to sound like what you want, but it will certainly be accurate--that's what your bass really sounds like.

Some good statements here, but I can tell you are not familiar with the V-Bass. If you were you would know that the Flea & Marcus tones are almost perfectly emulated and of course you have to slap to get them. Albeit Slap/Pluck/Strum are all attack specific forms of playing finger style.

As far as "reference" is concerned, you must have missed the part where I stated, "However, what you hear in ANY live setting or room via the V-Bass I am presently using, does not translate accurately to what you hear from the unit as a source when recorded via high quality sound cards."

I have been "doing this" a good while. I know about "rooms", "mid and near field monitoring", etc.

The V-Bass is a different animal altogether. If it sounds the same in various different rooms, why shouldn't it translate the same audibly when recorded to a hard drive? I have a Mackie PA that I play through live when I perform. I use KRK Rokit 8s in my little studio set up. I use the exact same e-mu interface equipment live and in the studio accept one is a PCM/CIA for live and the other is a PCI for the studio.

I am starting to have some different thoughts on what may in fact be the culprit with respect to a lack of accurate signal replication recorded to the hard drive. Maybe what's lost or added that changes the audible recorded bass tone, is a product of the analog to digital conversion INPUT on the e-mu cards themselves . I emphasize "input" because when the signal comes back out of the card's output it does sound different than what is played back from the hard drive recording of the same signal. Maybe what I am hearing as I am playing is the last portion of the signal chain of events with respect to analog in - digital - analog out, and MAYBE (I emphasize maybe because I am not sure if this is the case or not) what is written to the hard drive is the "digital" middle of the analog in - "digital" - analog out process?

Could it be that this is why you hear the virtues of Apogee converters and the whole "Black Lion" thing being preached so strongly these days with respect to using "word clock" modifications to interfaces?

 

[electrickbass]

hehe, don't worry man!

firstly, a good DI will match your bass' impedance to that of the interface, thats exactly what they are designed for, impedance matching and signal balancing. So a preamp is not necessarily needed, but pretty much all preamps have an xlr/line level output, which pretty much does the job of a di box, as long as the pre amp is designed to accept instrument signals to start with! ie you will still need a DI box to use a recording pre such as those on your mentioned emu interface or any of the huge array of cheap>pricey mic pres out there.

I would say that emu interface is fine to start with, if you haven't got an interface to record to already what are you using? the stock computer soundcard? if so then that is a big hurdle to overcome, a cheap interface will allow you to find a great tone before you upgrde, but a lowest of the low entry level card will degrade the signal A LOT!

I already have the e-mu card. I was just wondering if the preamps in the e-mu (the two mic inputs in the front of the 1616m dock - note that they take either a 1/4 inch input or xlr) would already match the impedance of the active output of my p-bass to begin with. In other words, do I REALLY need the RBI in conjunction with the e-mu 1616m unit to start with? Will it make for a better recording of the active p-bass when used in conjunction with the e-mu 1616m?

 

[Charling]

As far as "reference" is concerned, you must have missed the part where I stated, "However, what you hear in ANY live setting or room via the V-Bass I am presently using, does not translate accurately to what you hear from the unit as a source when recorded via high quality sound cards."

The V-Bass is a different animal altogether. If it sounds the same in various different rooms, why shouldn't it translate the same audibly when recorded to a hard drive? I have a Mackie PA that I play through live when I perform. I use KRK Rokit 8s in my little studio set up. I use the exact same e-mu interface equipment live and in the studio accept one is a PCM/CIA for live and the other is a PCI for the studio.

because when you record to hard drive you are bypassing the most important tone shaping elements completely, the amp, and the speakers!!!! thats the fundamental point. to hear your v-bass in a room it has to go through your mackie pa, the desk/mixer has a sound, the power amps have a sound and more than anything else the mackie speakers have a sound. IF YOU ARE NOT PLUGGED INTO THEM IT WILL NOT SOUND THE SAME!!!!!

thats why you CAN"T get the same sound going direct! The fact that you use the same emu interface live and it sounds great means that it CAN"T be the interface thats sucking out the sound! Ie, its NOT the a/d converters, which brings me on to my next point...

I am starting to have some different thoughts on what may in fact be the culprit with respect to a lack of accurate signal replication recorded to the hard drive. Maybe what's lost or added that changes the audible recorded bass tone, is a product of the analog to digital conversion INPUT on the e-mu cards themselves . I emphasize "input" because when the signal comes back out of the card's output it does sound different than what is played back from the hard drive recording of the same signal. Maybe what I am hearing as I am playing is the last portion of the signal chain of events with respect to analog in - digital - analog out, and MAYBE (I emphasize maybe because I am not sure if this is the case or not) what is written to the hard drive is the "digital" middle of the analog in - "digital" - analog out process?

Could it be that this is why you hear the virtues of Apogee converters and the whole "Black Lion" thing being preached so strongly these days with respect to using "word clock" modifications to interfaces?

I feel you were starting to get it but have now taken a U turn in the other direction the A/D is even less important than the pre amp, and it works in much the same way, a cheaper one just blurrs the image slightly. On a single source its pretty tricky to spot the difference between an ok A/D and a very good one (though it is just about possible) its when you are constructing a whole mix that A/D's become more important, with better ones allowing you a little more depth and space to work with. Very small differences certainly, but important if you need the best possible results.

your point about the signal flow in your soundcard is not quite right. all the audio you record with your computer goes through the A/D then back out the D/A whether you are hearing it back real time, or playing it back from disk. the data hitting the hard disk has NO effect on the audio, by that point it is 1's and 0's and signal integrity is very very easy to maintain. You should hear no difference with playing back from disk or hearing back in real time with pre-fade/input monitoring on. If you do you may have something set up wrong.

There are a few tiny exceptions to this rule, for example pro tools HD systems that monitor directly through the cards when recording then stream from disk on playback, but these exceptions are only in the big expensive setups, not crads like the emu. and even then the difference is SO slight I have never managaed to hear it myself.

Don't get me wrong, good A/D's are very nice to have, but I think you would be wasting your money to upgrade expecting it to have a big effect on your tone, recording preamps have very little effect on your basic tone, and A/D's EVEN LESS!

Every bit of gear has a sound ranging from the not so subtle to the subtle. Recording gear is designed to be a subtle as possible, even the ones that colour the signal do so in a very gentle way. PA's and amps are NOT designed to be subtle, so if you are removing them from your chain to record it WILL NOT SOUND THE SAME! PERIOD! sorry for all the caps, but I want to make sure the point is very much made

maybe you could take a line out of your live pa, or maybe even get a load box/radial speaker DI and take a line off of your live rigs speaker outs? then you could add a speaker sim to this feed and it might be closer to what you hear in the room, but it will still never be the same!

 

[WalterBush]

First, in reference to an earlier post, the TD 100 doesn't distort pleasantly to my ears. The only sign of "tubiness" I get out of it is similar to the way an old Bassman head responds to touch with a high-output bass plugged in (which is why I like it so much, I suppose). Occasional clipping sounds good. I tried to use it as a glorified distortion pedal once, and it failed miserably. Just so you're aware.

Second, it's beginning to sound like the emu may just not have good converters. You were right earlier, there's a good reason that Apogee is well-respected, and there's a reason I cling to my Echo Layla even though it's borderline obsolete. Converters can record exactly what you want, or blur up your carefully crafted tone something fierce, depending on quality.

I could be wrong, being completely unfamiliar with the vbass, but it's starting to sound to me like either the emu 1616 has the wrong input impedance for the vbass' output, in which case a DI will work wonders, or it has lower quality converters. Any way you could post clips of what you're recording?

 

[electrickbass]

because when you record to hard drive you are bypassing the most important tone shaping elements completely, the amp, and the speakers!!!! thats the fundamental point. to hear your v-bass in a room it has to go through your mackie pa, the desk/mixer has a sound, the power amps have a sound and more than anything else the mackie speakers have a sound. IF YOU ARE NOT PLUGGED INTO THEM IT WILL NOT SOUND THE SAME!!!!!

But if the hard drive's recorded bass line is playing back through the same amps/speakers that I am monitoring my live bass playing from in the first place, shouldn't the hard drive's recorded bass line sound pretty much identical when the recording is played back through them? It seems logical, maybe I am missing something here.

 

[electrickbass]

First, in reference to an earlier post, the TD 100 doesn't distort pleasantly to my ears. The only sign of "tubiness" I get out of it is similar to the way an old Bassman head responds to touch with a high-output bass plugged in (which is why I like it so much, I suppose). Occasional clipping sounds good. I tried to use it as a glorified distortion pedal once, and it failed miserably. Just so you're aware.

Second, it's beginning to sound like the emu may just not have good converters. You were right earlier, there's a good reason that Apogee is well-respected, and there's a reason I cling to my Echo Layla even though it's borderline obsolete. Converters can record exactly what you want, or blur up your carefully crafted tone something fierce, depending on quality.

I could be wrong, being completely unfamiliar with the vbass, but it's starting to sound to me like either the emu 1616 has the wrong input impedance for the vbass' output, in which case a DI will work wonders, or it has lower quality converters. Any way you could post clips of what you're recording?

OK, I am super grateful for your patience Walter. I really am. Musicians don't typically make great engineers because they tend to be wired differently upstairs. No one here has a clue just how much I have struggled to get the left half of my brain to cooperate.

Some people can sit down and read a manual and understand everything as they read it in real time. I have to go back over and over and over, to get stuff down. However those same people that are left half of the brain savvy,are normally terrible with respect to musical improvisation and creativity in general.

If I were to get a Bass DI like the RBI, would I just plug my basses out put into it and the out put of the DI directly into the e-mu? How does the DI RBI know the impedance of what it's plugged into as matching if impedance can vary? Is this an "automatic" result of using the RBI or ????

I will get you some comparison clips sometime very soon. I am at work during the day.

I can let you hear some of this improv project that I started with one other person in the mean time. Sadly the man moved to Vietnam with his wife so we didn't get much else done. This is mostly just noodling. I'm playing v-bass which is a combination of modeling and proprietary Roland midi bass synth conversions and he is playing a GK series guitar pick up through NI's Kontact. Really, it does not demonstrate straight bass tones, but it will give you an idea as to the type of stuff I am doing sometimes.

Link Removed

 

[Charling]

But if the hard drive's recorded bass line is playing back through the same amps/speakers that I am monitoring my live bass playing from in the first place, shouldn't the hard drive's recorded bass line sound pretty much identical when the recording is played back through them? It seems logical, maybe I am missing something here.

ah I see is that what you are doing? I thought you were monitoring through your krk's, yeah if you are coming out of the soundcard into the PA it should sound similar, except that the level coming out of the soundcard may be different to the level coming straight out of your v-bass, and some impedance issues may be at work... what input do you use? for example if its a high z instrument input for your bass direct and you use the same one for a soundcard out it may suck a bit of the tone away.

You mentioned earlier that your pres on the emu have an xlr and a 1/4" input, it is normal for JUST the xlr to go to the pre amp, the 1/4" will most probably go to a line amp as it is designed to take line level signals. If you are coming line level out of the v-bass into the 1/4" socket on the emu then you are using the v-bass' preamp to get to line level and an extra preamp would not only not make much of a difference, it may even be not possible to do as a line level signal is too hot to run into most preamps!

when playing through your rig do you go line out of the v-bass into line in on the PA?

EDIT - just saw your new post, the DI doesn't have a way to know the impedance of the circuit on the other end but it changes it so its very low, ie lower than it will ever need to be. In the same way the Hi-Z input on some desks has an impedance that is really high, high enough that it will always be greater than an instrument. Thats the important thing, for the source to not be higher impedance than the destination to keep up the 'pressure' as the signal moves around the circuit. Thats the way I see it though, I'm sure better electricians will have a more complete explaination.

So you could come direct from bass>DI>DI out>emu. this would bypass the v-bass. the DI's thru output could go to the vbass and then you could take a line off that as well, then combine the two.

If you want the whole signal to be v-bass'd you will need to choose what output you have on the back. if you come out of a line output on the v-bass it should be a signal already suitable to go to the emu's line input, with no impedance matching. if it's an instrument level output it might be worth trying a DI, but check in the manual for the v-bass, it should show you the impedance of specific outputs!

 

[Jehos]

It might help if you back up and explain exactly how your signal chain works when you record.

If I'm understanding right, it sounds like you're going:

Studio:
Bass -> VBass -> Emu -> Disk -> Emu -> KRK-8's

Live:
Bass -> VBass -> Emu -> Disk -> Emu -> Mackie PA

Is that correct? Or when you're tracking, do you monitor yourself through the PA, then listen to playback of the recording on the KRKs?

How loud do you have things turned up when you're tracking and when you're playing back?

There are a few things that could be at play here, and it depends on how good your ears and memory are.

- If you aren't that loud and you remember what you heard very well, it could be that you're not hearing the sound of your bass unplugged when you listen to the playback. Remember that as you play, you're hearing the sound of your bass coming from right below you in addition to whatever is coming out of the speakers. The playback will never sound exactly the same because you're not hearing your bass.

- More commonly, people don't remember what they heard exactly while they were tracking, because you have to spend concentration actually playing your part. When you can focus completely on the playback, what you hear is usually a little different than what you remember.

- You could be monitoring from a different source than you're getting playback from. It could be drastic, like if you are playing through an amp but your signal to disk is direct. Or it could be subtle, like the Emu has pass-through monitoring so that as you play, you're hearing a signal that only made it as far as the Emu instead of hearing what's actually written to disk. A lot of interfaces can do this to avoid latency if your computer is slow, but cheap interfaces can color your sound slightly due to cheap electronics for monitoring.

- Your Emu could have junk converters, or preamps that are heavily coloring your sound.

- You could be getting the connection wrong. You should be using the XLR connection from the V-Bass to the Emu IF the Emu can handle a +4dB line level. If not, use the Bass Output jack into a direct box, then the XLR output from the direct box to the Emu.

 

[electrickbass]

It might help if you back up and explain exactly how your signal chain works when you record.

If I'm understanding right, it sounds like you're going:

Studio:
Bass -> VBass -> Emu -> Disk -> Emu -> KRK-8's

Live:
Bass -> VBass -> Emu -> Disk -> Emu -> Mackie PA

Is that correct? Or when you're tracking, do you monitor yourself through the PA, then listen to playback of the recording on the KRKs?

How loud do you have things turned up when you're tracking and when you're playing back?

There are a few things that could be at play here, and it depends on how good your ears and memory are.

- If you aren't that loud and you remember what you heard very well, it could be that you're not hearing the sound of your bass unplugged when you listen to the playback. Remember that as you play, you're hearing the sound of your bass coming from right below you in addition to whatever is coming out of the speakers. The playback will never sound exactly the same because you're not hearing your bass.

- More commonly, people don't remember what they heard exactly while they were tracking, because you have to spend concentration actually playing your part. When you can focus completely on the playback, what you hear is usually a little different than what you remember.

- You could be monitoring from a different source than you're getting playback from. It could be drastic, like if you are playing through an amp but your signal to disk is direct. Or it could be subtle, like the Emu has pass-through monitoring so that as you play, you're hearing a signal that only made it as far as the Emu instead of hearing what's actually written to disk. A lot of interfaces can do this to avoid latency if your computer is slow, but cheap interfaces can color your sound slightly due to cheap electronics for monitoring.

- Your Emu could have junk converters, or preamps that are heavily coloring your sound.

- You could be getting the connection wrong. You should be using the XLR connection from the V-Bass to the Emu IF the Emu can handle a +4dB line level. If not, use the Bass Output jack into a direct box, then the XLR output from the direct box to the Emu.

The e-mu is a pretty good unit. Certainly not Apogee quality converters on board, currently no word clock either (the 1820m had wordclock but it's not made any longer), but as good as anything Presonus/Motu/RME/edirol make. I do not recommend e-mu however. I simply can't. Their support means went to the dogs when e-mu was purchased by creative labs. Their products are most likely suffering as well, but I really have not seen evidence of that outside the fact that there have been no driver updates for their high end cards for a LONG time now. Very sad considering that e-mu made the first and most respected pro industry grade hardware sampler.

a.) I am currently using the mono OUTPUT: +4 dBu, OUTPUT (XLR)2 k ohms, OUTPUT XLR from the v-bass to the E-MU XTC Mic/Line/Hi-Z Preamps (same as pro tools digidesign AD) 48V Phantom Power (-129.5dBu EIN).

b.) I run both (stereo) 1/4 inch balanced outputs to the Boss RC-50 floor looper and then from the RC-50 balanced 1/4 inch outputs to the e-mu 1/4 inch balanced line inputs.

c.) From the Active American Deluxe P-Bass 1/4 inch output I run that directly into the high z 1/4 inch input which is coupled with an XLR input. (Neutrik connectors)

That's the sum total of the bass guitar audio as it enters the e-mu. The e-mu is a PCI device that utilizes a software mixer called the Patchmix DSP. It's an ASIO based mixer that is the in/out basis for Ableton Live's input/output mixer. Since I am constantly working in Ableton Live, the audio signals are all routed twice. Once through the Ableton program's input mixer, and once past it via an ASIO send in the patchmix's master channel to the KRK monitors. This simply means that if I am multi track recording, any external instruments being recorded must have their session channel's speaker turned off. If you don't you get the typical slight twin signal delay. Since everything coming from within the box (synth & drums), they only pass through the master in Ableton's mixer and out the send in the Patchmix DSP master channel. This is an ideal set up for on the fly improvisational recording because it allows for total latency free monitoring of every audio signal input simultaneously, or, any individual input channels as chosen can be muted via the initial Patchmix while still being recorded to the session.

**I was just wondering if it would make an improvement in the my straight active p-bass recorded tone to run it into the Tech 21 RBI and then out of that via XLR into the E-Mu's preamp.

The first part of my questions with respect to the V-Bass signals as recorded to the hard drive has been answered. Better yet, I believe I understand why thanks to all the input here.

Now, only the **question remains. Would the Sansamp RBI direct input be a distinct improvement in recorded tone? I realize the V-Bass has a Bass In Direct Out, but it does nothing for tone other than capture what's already there in my bass with respect to it's electronics. I can't help but feel that the Sansamp RBI will make an improvement to my straight bass's directly recorded tone. Maybe I'm wrong. The main thing is that I don;t want to fry the E-Mu's preamp (or whatever) by running the Sansamp into it's XLR preamp input.

 

[Jehos]

Adding a SansAmp RBI will give you some more tone options. Whether those are an improvement is really up to your ears--maybe it gives you the tools you need to get the tone in your head on tape, maybe not.

Looking at that SansAmp, you'd probably take the wet output (not the unaffected one) XLR and hook it to a line input on the E-Mu. You'd need some kind of metering to see if you're at line level or not, then turn up the XLR knob on the front until you hit the right level.

It kind of sucks that the RBI doesn't have any sort of dedicated line out or at least a unity gain marker on the XLR knob.

 

[electrickbass]

Adding a SansAmp RBI will give you some more tone options. Whether those are an improvement is really up to your ears--maybe it gives you the tools you need to get the tone in your head on tape, maybe not.

Looking at that SansAmp, you'd probably take the wet output (not the unaffected one) XLR and hook it to a line input on the E-Mu. You'd need some kind of metering to see if you're at line level or not, then turn up the XLR knob on the front until you hit the right level.

It kind of sucks that the RBI doesn't have any sort of dedicated line out or at least a unity gain marker on the XLR knob.

Good grief! When will it end? Holy hat tricks. Now I need some kind of a meter too?

Guys, I want to honestly thank every one of you for your input, time and patience with me. I'm a very sincere music loving bloke and all, but I'm afraid that even I can't tell when I'm full of it and when me poop's in a group. It must be quite frustrating for some of you to deal with me.

Over the years I have sure committed a lot of heart, time & money into music. I guess that sometimes my secret self importance reflects on this as if it's some kind of badge of entitlement or whatever. The good old ego at hard at work. When issues like this preamp and recorded signal accuracy come knocking, it just serves to remind me that I have a long way to go and really don't know squat.

I just have one simple question. Why they heck couldn't I have just been born rich? Or maybe, something as simple as saving Roy Thomas Baker's life, where in which he gave me all his earthly possessions, joined a monastery and went off to be a monk or something.

On second thought, that might not be such a great thing. It would just further serve to prove how little I truly know about what to do with all that equipment.

 

[Charling]

Good grief! When will it end? Holy hat tricks. Now I need some kind of a meter too?

Guys, I want to honestly thank every one of you for your input, time and patience with me. I'm a very sincere music loving bloke and all, but I'm afraid that even I can't tell when I'm full of it and when me poop's in a group. It must be quite frustrating for some of you to deal with me.

Over the years I have sure committed a lot of heart, time & money into music. I guess that sometimes my secret self importance reflects on this as if it's some kind of badge of entitlement or whatever. The good old ego at hard at work. When issues like this preamp and recorded signal accuracy come knocking, it just serves to remind me that I have a long way to go and really don't know squat.

I just have one simple question. Why they heck couldn't I have just been born rich? Or maybe, something as simple as saving Roy Thomas Baker's life, where in which he gave me all his earthly possessions, joined a monastery and went off to be a monk or something.

On second thought, that might not be such a great thing. It would just further serve to prove how little I truly know about what to do with all that equipment.

don't worry, you don't need a meter, at least no more than the input meter you get on your soundcard!

once you get used to thinking in terms of signal level and impedance it gets pretty easy quite quickly! they are all new terms but once you are used to them you will be able to set up a system that works correctly in no time at all, and be able to see a problem instantly without even needing to hear it.

Thats what makes guys like Roy Thomas Baker so good, that kind of awareness but on a much greater level, hearing everything that goes on in the track and being able to zone in on problems instantly. The gear comes later after all that!

Sufjan Stephens recorded one of his albums, I can't remember either Michigan or Illinoise, with 1 57, a c1000 and a cheap hard disk recorder set to record at 33Khz. That just goes to show how little gear means when someone creative is behind it all! I always think of that when getting frustrated with things not working!

 

[electrickbass]

don't worry, you don't need a meter, at least no more than the input meter you get on your soundcard!

once you get used to thinking in terms of signal level and impedance it gets pretty easy quite quickly! they are all new terms but once you are used to them you will be able to set up a system that works correctly in no time at all, and be able to see a problem instantly without even needing to hear it.

Thats what makes guys like Roy Thomas Baker so good, that kind of awareness but on a much greater level, hearing everything that goes on in the track and being able to zone in on problems instantly. The gear comes later after all that!

Sufjan Stephens recorded one of his albums, I can't remember either Michigan or Illinoise, with 1 57, a c1000 and a cheap hard disk recorder set to record at 33Khz. That just goes to show how little gear means when someone creative is behind it all! I always think of that when getting frustrated with things not working!

Thanks Charling. I know what I'm doing. I'm pressing on and keeping my noise in the books so to speak. I have Katz book which is considered fairly indispensable.

The problem that guys like myself run into is not only knowledge and experience relevant, but very much so facilitation in nature. For instance, my "studio" is in a furnace/water heater room in the basement. I went out this past summer and purchased a nice open cell acoustic foam kit from the factory where the stuff is made. But frankly, there is only so much you can do with a room like I have. I would LOVE to have a nice pair of Adams or Genelec monitors. Problem is, my room is never going to be true because of it's make shift nature so what good would i really be accomplishing?

The Bass is such a fascinating animal to zero in on recording wise. I am a big 70s hard rock fan. Some of the bass guitar tones that were captured on those mid to early 70s analog machines was simply beyond reproach. ESPECIALLY some of the British recordings. I know that some will laugh at me for stating as much, but Black Sabbath's Paranoid album is an absolute analog masterpiece with respect to tone. Listen to Bill Ward's drums on that album and try and find drums on other relevant period rock pieces that even compare. They are some of the "truest" drums sounds my ears have ever heard. Then listen to Geezer's bass on Iron Man. For years as a youngster I swore that he must have over dubbed his bass parts because if you listen very closely, you will hear two distinct recorded bass signals. It's like one was recorded with a pick and one finger style. Later I started to believe that it must have been two distinct signals captured simultaneously. Possibly a miked cabinet and a direct input. I still don't know, but if you listen extremely carefully, there is either a tiny natural or devised delay between the signals. This delay is super prominent on Iommi's guitar soloing to the point of almost sounding over dubbed which possibly it is at times. All and all, if you ever get a chance to do a serious mastering room listen (which I have been lucky enough to do at a local studio where I live in Michigan) this album's stellar analog quality will unquestionably reveal itself to you.

I think when all is said and done here, I will purchase the RBI first and follow it up with either the Distressor or the Reddi. I am going to do a search on this forum right now to see if there was ever a shoot out or comparison between the two. I cannot help but feel that either one of these compressors would effect over all direct tonal quality monstrously.

edit: I just realized that the Reddi is NOT a compressor but rather a tube direct input. My bad.

 

[Charling]

Thanks Charling. I know what I'm doing. I'm pressing on and keeping my noise in the books so to speak. I have Katz book which is considered fairly indispensable.

The problem that guys like myself run into is not only knowledge and experience relevant, but very much so facilitation in nature. For instance, my "studio" is in a furnace/water heater room in the basement. I went out this past summer and purchased a nice open cell acoustic foam kit from the factory where the stuff is made. But frankly, there is only so much you can do with a room like I have. I would LOVE to have a nice pair of Adams or Genelec monitors. Problem is, my room is never going to be true because of it's make shift nature so what good would i really be accomplishing?

The Bass is such a fascinating animal to zero in on recording wise. I am a big 70s hard rock fan. Some of the bass guitar tones that were captured on those mid to early 70s analog machines was simply beyond reproach. ESPECIALLY some of the British recordings. I know that some will laugh at me for stating as much, but Black Sabbath's Paranoid album is an absolute analog masterpiece with respect to tone. Listen to Bill Ward's drums on that album and try and find drums on other relevant period rock pieces that even compare. They are some of the "truest" drums sounds my ears have ever heard. Then listen to Geezer's bass on Iron Man. For years as a youngster I swore that he must have over dubbed his bass parts because if you listen very closely, you will hear two distinct recorded bass signals. It's like one was recorded with a pick and one finger style. Later I started to believe that it must have been two distinct signals captured simultaneously. Possibly a miked cabinet and a direct input. I still don't know, but if you listen extremely carefully, there is either a tiny natural or devised delay between the signals. This delay is super prominent on Iommi's guitar soloing to the point of almost sounding over dubbed which possibly it is at times. All and all, if you ever get a chance to do a serious mastering room listen (which I have been lucky enough to do at a local studio where I live in Michigan) this album's stellar analog quality will unquestionably reveal itself to you.

I think when all is said and done here, I will purchase the RBI first and follow it up with either the Distressor or the Reddi. I am going to do a search on this forum right now to see if there was ever a shoot out or comparison between the two. I cannot help but feel that either one of these compressors would effect over all direct tonal quality monstrously.

edit: I just realized that the Reddi is NOT a compressor but rather a tube direct input. My bad.

well it sounds like you are certainly on the right track. Have you tried heavy duty bass traps for your room? the acoustic foam is great for highs and mids but the bass, often the biggest culprit for confusion in a small room is not dealt with that well by the thinner stuff. You can make a good bass trap with a square frame of wood, light and about 10cm deep, packed with rockwool and covered with stapled cloth to look good. Its the depth that helps absorb the bass frequencies. often a few of those above the listening position and a couple on opposing walls can make the world of difference, and you can make them for VERY cheap, especially if you get the wood from a used timber yard and the rockwool from ebay. I made some recently and they worked out at about £15 per 1m by 1/2 meter trap, and they worked wonders!

a small room is always a killer, but if you can deaden it ENOUGH then you can at least mix in it, even if it sounds VERY dry.

I'm not sure if Paranoid did but a lot of the heavy rock albums of that era used to double the bass with big synth, and that helped add a load of weight. Paranoid my have been a little to early to use this techiniqe but Mike Fraiser talks about using this technique on some AC/DC albums here >

http://www.recordproduction.com/producers_and_engineers_videos.htm

Its almost certain that the bass sound was double mic'd + di so that could be what you are hearing!

Although a REDDI or distressor may not instantly solve all your tone woes there is no doubt that a good preamp or a true classic compressor like the distressor would help you get a great sound. If you have the money then go for it, why not hey?

 

[electrickbass]

Wow, COOL insight on the AC/DC recordings! I was just listening to the George Marino remasters of Powerage this morning. I have nearly all of them and really appreciate the excellent job George did on those. I always listen to about 20-30 minutes of music before breakfast to get my mojo on line. Post a cup of coffee of course.

It was a remastered morning today consisting of The Beatles Abbey Road, CCR's Cosmo's Factory, Willy & The Poor Boys, The Yes Album & AC/DC Powerage. All remastered on disc.

I am really doing my best to wrap my head around four different highly rated devices.

1) The Gas Cooker

2) Reddi

3) Tech 21 RBI

4) The Distressor.

I understand now that the Reddi HAS to be used with a separate preamp. I could use the preamp already within my E-MU 1616m card.

E-MU XTC™ Class-A, ultra-low noise preamps (-129.5dBu) - Mic/Line and true Hi-Z inputs via Neutrik connectors, with analog soft limiter, 48V phantom power and 60dB of gain.

These have a lot of gain so I am certain they would be ample. If you were me, would you just forget about the RBI if I purchased the Reddi?

The Reddi appears to be an unusual device. It seems to be more of Direct coloration device. Is this true?

If used, should the Reddi always be just post the bass guitar itself? What if the Reddi were used in conjunction with the Distressor? Should one REALLY be even considering using the Distressor in conjunction with a DI? I was reading on the forum yesterday where some very experienced bassists were stating that they never or rarely used compression prior to recording their bass direct.

Next comes the The Gas Cooker. Is this basically a stereo version of the Reddi with a built in preamp? Does it color the the bass guitars recorded DI like the Reddi? How would I run the The Gas Cooker into my Card? Would I just turn the preamp gain down all the way and run it straight through the XLR into the card's AD converters?

24-bit/192kHz converters - the same A/D converters used in Digidesign's ProTools HD 192 I/O Interface - 120dB signal-to-noise ratio.

In a brutally honest sense, what about the RBI? Considering the other devices I am inquiring about, including the mic pres on my card, is this Sansamp just a glorified DI "stompbox" waste of money?

Thanks!

 

[WalterBush]

If you're contemplating running a Reddi into a Distressor, then I wouldn't bother with a Sansamp anything.

Usually, bassists using a compressor run a DI or preamp into the compressor, into their convertors/mixing board/tape machine/whatever.

In other words, DI-->compressor, not the other way around.

The Sansamp isn't a waste of money, but upside a good DI into a compressor, it won't net you anything you can't get otherwise.

For what it's worth, one of my favorite recording frontends is GT ViPre into a Universal Audio LA-2A. I've also recorded using a Sansamp into an LA-2A. I much prefer using the ViPre. Any EQ or sound coloration the Sansamp got me just didn't sound as good to my ears as the sound of my bass, straight into a good pre.

I like using an LA-2A whenever possible for recording bass, though at my home studio I've just got the UA plugin, not the hardware version. If you're in the Distressor price range, I'd encourage you to give it a look-see. Two knobs and a switch, just crank 'em back and forth 'til your bass sounds bigger!

 

[Charling]

I agree very much with the above!

Wow, COOL insight on the AC/DC recordings! I was just listening to the George Marino remasters of Powerage this morning. I have nearly all of them and really appreciate the excellent job George did on those. I always listen to about 20-30 minutes of music before breakfast to get my mojo on line. Post a cup of coffee of course.

yeah, that whole site is great, theres a couple of hundred interviews with some really top producers (including my boss's! ) as well as studio tours etc, plenty of GAS to be had!

I am really doing my best to wrap my head around four different highly rated devices.

1) The Gas Cooker

2) Reddi

3) Tech 21 RBI

4) The Distressor.

I understand now that the Reddi HAS to be used with a separate preamp. I could use the preamp already within my E-MU 1616m card.

E-MU XTC™ Class-A, ultra-low noise preamps (-129.5dBu) - Mic/Line and true Hi-Z inputs via Neutrik connectors, with analog soft limiter, 48V phantom power and 60dB of gain.

These have a lot of gain so I am certain they would be ample. If you were me, would you just forget about the RBI if I purchased the Reddi?

The Reddi appears to be an unusual device. It seems to be more of Direct coloration device. Is this true?

If used, should the Reddi always be just post the bass guitar itself? What if the Reddi were used in conjunction with the Distressor? Should one REALLY be even considering using the Distressor in conjunction with a DI? I was reading on the forum yesterday where some very experienced bassists were stating that they never or rarely used compression prior to recording their bass direct.

yeah, you are looking at a few different bits of gear so confusion is bound to be abound! The gas cooker is a pre/di (though you can get a di only version, I have never seen it in stock at any store, or even listed by most). Its is a colouration device of sorts, it has the same outputs as a DI, ie a thru and a balanced out. it also has a line output, so you have a choice of how to use it,

1- as a normal DI, thru to amp (or not used at all) and balanced (front panel) output to your pre amp.

2 - as a pre amp, coming out of the back panel LINE output. this would go to the line input on your emu and avoid the preamp, this would probably yield the best results as the gas cooker pre is great. your line input is 1/4" jack, i guess, so you would need an fem.xlr>jack cable to do this, if you go into the xlr in of the emu you are just pushing it through another preamp, which can be a bad thing.

you can also put mics into the gas cooker and while it doesn't have bags of gain it does sound great. These preamps will be a LOT better than the ones on your emu, so you will be getting a triple deal of great Di, great bass pre and great mic pre, all X 2! the cons, well, price and also the box is quite coloured in general, if you are not into the boxes sound then it its hard to avoid it, but I love it and being into the music you are I'm sure you will too! Note, by coloured I mean a recording gear kind of way, its subtle compared to an amp or similar but noticeable.

the reddi is a di with some colouration, its kind of like the ridge farm but just the normal DI with gain boost bit, no mic pres and no line output, so you would still have to go into your emu pres. sounds great, though and is a lot cheaper!

the tech 21 is a di box with some amp modelling stuff and I think it has a line output, so again you can bypass your pres. it is probably the most flexible of all the devices you mention and it has by FAR the most tone colouration options. its an amp sim, really, and can be used as an effects pedal too. a good box, very versatile and I do sometimes use one to grunge up a di track recorded with a ridge farm or similar, if i get to the mix and need a bit more grit. I don't use one as a recording pre though, because I have the ridge farm This would be my last choice on the list, nice to have around but far from indespensable and doesn't have the pedigree of the others in terms of sound. You may find the tone shaping is just what you need, though.

the distressor is a compressor, full stop. its not at all like the rest, and it will not remove the need for you to preamplify your bass etc. it accepts line signals, as in after a preamp, and squashes them with skill. the distressor is a little boring to my ears in normal mode, but in either of the distortion modes it sounds great. Its worth noting that distortion doesn't sound at all like the name suggests, its subtle and very dependant on what the compressor is doing so it requires a whole other, a bit more advanced, approach and understanding. it sounds great.

however as walter bush says, if you are in the market for a GOOD compressor then there are a lot of VERY inviting options, if you want a compressor don't think that the distressor is the only one for you, in that price range you are getting very much into pro audio and there are some really really great compressors out there. if you really want a compressor rather than the others let us know and we can suggest more!

If you are not very comfortable with using a compressor I would ignore this option for now. using compression on 'the way in' is normal for big studios and experienced engineers but can lead to problems if you are not a dab hand. for that reason you normally see people advising against it for less experienced users, compression is a destructive process rather than tone shaping (like the other options you mention) and can not be undone!

24-bit/192kHz converters - the same A/D converters used in Digidesign's ProTools HD 192 I/O Interface - 120dB signal-to-noise ratio.

In a brutally honest sense, what about the RBI? Considering the other devices I am inquiring about, including the mic pres on my card, is this Sansamp just a glorified DI "stompbox" waste of money?

Thanks!

be wary of the A/D specs, for example most A/D's can work at 24/96 these days, it means nothing really, as its HOW WELL it captures those samples that counts and that varies considerably. The actual A/D stage may well be the same as a digi 192 but i'm sure the clock is not, and the clock has a big effect on the sound of a converter and, unfortunalty, a good clock is expensive! I don't know about specs but I know our 192 cards sound great, and if the emu's sounded as good then you would get studios packed with emu boxes running as aggregate devices just for the a/d section ( a 192 is just a/d's really, there is no real volume control, just line inputs and outputs.)

I'd go for the ridge farm, then later the distressor. (the most expensive, I know ) the ridge farm allows you to get your bass amped up and also get two great pre's for mics (much better than the emu stock pres). the A/D's do not matter that much yet, as mentioned before they don't have a make or break impact on the quality, though the are important to squeeze a little more clarity out of a good recording.

I think that may be my longest ever post! phew! I'm very much enjoying this conversation though, its nice to have such a good, in depth discussion, I always find myself having to question what I know in case I post something silly, this is a very good thing!

 

[electrickbass]

I am so GRATEFUL for the level of conversation and solid communicated information that I am recieving here in this thread, that I want you guys to know that you have made me a forum member here for life. I kid you not, this will be the FIRST time I have ever made that statement. Whereas I cannot afford to make some industry giant monetary contribution to this forum, I AM making a humble one nonetheless just as soon as I am able. This is because of the level of sincerity I have experienced here. Man, you guys ROCK!!!

This is the progress that I made yesterday. I NEED you guys to help me to sort out fact from fiction. I live in Michigan. In many senses, economically speaking, that is a complete nightmare. However, I am fortunate to be in a retail business that is "service repair commodity" oriented. I'm hanging in there.

I happen to live about 15 miles from Vintage King Audio's Michigan location. I called and spoke to one of the nicest and most helpful people I have ever spoken to on the phone yesterday. They have most of this stuff in stock there. (I did not inquire about the Gas Cooker)

Check this out: They have a used, completely recapped and gone through UA LA2A unit with a full 1 year warranty.

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They have the REDDI in stock.

I laid my story out for the man and this is what he had to say in short. He stated that in terms of compressors, Walter was dead on. He stated that the Distressor is GREAT and is literally the number 1 selling pro audio compressor ever produced in the history of pro audio equipment. However, he went on to state that hands down, LA2A was a monster. He also recommended what was a Retro Instruments "sta" model.

As he went on, and BTW, was extremely gracious enough to be placed on hold as my own retail customers came and went several times, he provided the following recommendations and this is where I sincerely need your help.

Realizing that I had not just won some landfall lottery or something, he insisted that at this point, as Charling just stated word for word, my BIGGEST concern was my ADC factor. The e-mu's are OK, but like stock Motu, Presonus, m-audio or RME, the inboard ADC served to "muddy and murk" the digital waters so to speak. He stated that if he was me, the first purchase I should make is a Mytek Digital Stereo96 Series - ADC run SPDIF into the e-mu interface.

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He stated that this piece itself would make a HUGE difference with respect to whatever was going DI and subsequently recorded to the hard drive.

Then he stated, and you have to remember that they have 3 REDDI boxes there right now in stock, that I should consider the TAB-Funkenwerk V71DI as compared to the REDDI.

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Straight up guys, do you think he was being shrewd and attempting to move a slow mover with respect to DIs. This guy impressed me so much with his sincerity and understanding, that I don;t REALLY want to consider as much. HOWEVER, I AM a retail salesperson and KNOW the game.

What do you think?

I honestly may not be able to grab the LA2A right now. I may need to focus on the ADC factor and a high quality DI.

After reflecting on the whole thing, what about my preamp situation? If my adc factor sits out in front of the e-mu preamps via the spdif connection, will the e-mu pres still "get the job done" for the time being until I can afford a better preamp?