Precision capacitor with Antiquity II pickup

[Bassamatic]

I'm not sure on the timeline and models, but I think by 60s all P basses had .047 (.05) uF caps. Some older models I think had .1 uF, which would also work - it just goes deeper into the lows as you roll off the highs.

Note that it doesn't really matter all that much what value cap you have until the last ~25% of the tone pot turn. Most of the "tone" effect before that last bit seems to come from changing the resistance (i.e. the pot itself). So unless you often roll off your tone by 75% or more, I wouldn't be too concerned about it.

Different brands and materials don't affect the sound (IMO, IME, this is a controversial topic), except that with looser tolerances the actual capacitance may be +/-20% (or more) from the nominal value. I think if you get some poly/film or even ceramic caps with 5-10% tolerance, you should be just fine. They're cheap, so try out a bunch (with alligator clips you don't have to solder), see what you like.

YES IT DOES MATTER ! The change in value determines the "Hinge Point" where the roll-off starts! The larger the value, the lower the frequency where the roll- off starts. 1/2 value = 2 x frequency. For example a 0.1 uF cap might roll off frequencies starting at 1 kHz, where a 0.05 cap would not start working until 2 kHz. ( frequencies shown are only for demonstration). THAT is significant.

Also, by starting at a lower frequency the larger value gives a deeper cut at the high end , since the rate of cut is the same for all caps in this type of circuit.

However, he is right that the cap material is not significant AT ALL.

 

[Bassamatic]

Only at the very end of the sweep does it become another volume pot in this scenario, which goes to demonstrate that the cap isn't playing a role until the final part of the sweep. (Volume and tone pots aren't wired the same; there's an open lug on a tone pot, and it's wired in parallel with the circuit, whereas a volume pot is wired in series, it takes longer for the shorted tone pot to shunt the signal to ground.) Check it out--there's no difference between a piece of wire and a cap until the tone pot is dialed back about 3/4:

Of course there is a difference, it is just not yet audible. If you put a 1 or 2 uF cap in there instead of 0.1 you would hear a difference immediately.

 

[fermata]

Of course there is a difference, it is just not yet audible. If you put a 1 or 2 uF cap in there instead of 0.1 you would hear a difference immediately.

Absolutely--in the last 1/4 turn of the pot. The point is that for the first portion of the pot's sweep, one hears the effect of resistive loading; in the latter part of the sweep, the hinge frequency of the cap comes to bear. The video above demos the effect well. (I'm not so sure we're actually disagreeing on anything here...)

 

[sikamikanico]

YES IT DOES MATTER ! The change in value determines the "Hinge Point" where the roll-off starts! The larger the value, the lower the frequency where the roll- off starts. 1/2 value = 2 x frequency. For example a 0.1 uF cap might roll off frequencies starting at 1 kHz, where a 0.05 cap would not start working until 2 kHz. ( frequencies shown are only for demonstration). THAT is significant.

Also, by starting at a lower frequency the larger value gives a deeper cut at the high end , since the rate of cut is the same for all caps in this type of circuit.

However, he is right that the cap material is not significant AT ALL.

Yeah, that's true, but none of that happens if the tone knob is fully open (and for ~75% of its turn). At least not that I can hear - if the effect exists, I'll say it's not significant.

Full disclosure: I don't understand the physics behind it, I'm just talking about my experience. But I have read others (some much smarter and more knowledgeable than me) said the same thing. Then again, it could depend on other factors (equipment used), as well as our hearing. My wife would agree my hearing is not the best

 

[fermata]

Sorry but regardless of the value of the capacitor the voltage which is the most suitable for the Precision?

Doesn't matter. A pickup puts out only millivolts, so any cap will handle that.

 

[96tbird]

Or you can literally buy 50 mylar film capacitors for the same price that do the same job and are made of better quality materials. The whole vintage thing is nothing but nonsense. Cloth wire and expensive capacitors are a complete and total waste of money.

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If there’s no difference, why would better quality materials bear into it? Plastic is plastic, mylar is polyethylene plasic. Coated in plastic.
How is that better than paper and steel? It isn’t and it isn’t as cool a Soviet caps: they don’t cut highs, they MAKE HIGHS LEAVE THE SIGNAL! Sorry, this is just fun.

You’re right, only the value matters not what it’s made of.

I understand trying to keep it traditional, but keep in mind that those ceramic caps had a +/-20% tolerance on a good day. That .05uF cap could be anywhere from .04 to .06uf and the .1uF could fall in a .08 to .12uF range. You can see that it's not a stretch for a .033 or .068uF to nearly fall in line with the tolerances.
This is why I prefer to tune my tone control to what works best with the pickup and my ear. A touch of experimentation has certainly made my final cap choice not what I thought it would be on a few occasions.

Traditional for a Fender is a ceramic cap the size of a quarter. .047. +/- 20%. Or anything that a supplier had on hand in that ballpark that Leo could cut a cheap deal on. Worrying about it IN ANY MANNER other than grabbing any old .047 cap is futile.

What is debatable is whether op wants it to look traditional in there or wants a close tolerance, modern cap. In the end, if the pickups are good and the instrument is good, it’ll sound good.

 

[Yahboy]

I’d love to hear sound samples of the differences with tone wide open. Do you have any, or know of any?

Don't be lazy, I suggest you experience yourself, you will get your answer and could improve your soldering skill.

 

[sikamikanico]

Don't be lazy, I suggest you experience yourself, you will get your answer and could improve your soldering skill.

Oh, I did, could not hear a difference...

I repeat, I’m talking tone pot wide open (brightest setting). When you fully close it, different cap values make a dramatic difference.

But one is always limited with the equipment he uses, so I’m always open to new evidence changing my views. Maybe my basses don’t create enough high end to hear a difference? Maybe I should use Qtuners and fresh stainless strings? Maybe my headphones are not accurate in the treble range? Maybe my ears are getting old (Probably most plausible)?

 

[Yahboy]

Oh, I did, could not hear a difference...

I repeat, I’m talking tone pot wide open (brightest setting). When you fully close it, different cap values make a dramatic difference.

But one is always limited with the equipment he uses, so I’m always open to new evidence changing my views. Maybe my basses don’t create enough high end to hear a difference? Maybe I should use Qtuners and fresh stainless strings? Maybe my headphones are not accurate in the treble range? Maybe my ears are getting old (Probably most plausible)?

Yes, I am talking about wide open tone knob sound.

 

[Pantofolaio79]

Excuse my ignorance but the value 0.1 uF is equal to 0.10 MDF? Thanks a lot.

 

[bigtone23]

Excuse my ignorance but the value 0.1 uF is equal to 0.10 MDF? Thanks a lot.

mFd=uF=microfarad

 

[40Hz]

I’ve used every type of capacitor you can probably name in one bass or another: ceramic, polyester, “tropical fish,” bumblebee, PIO, Soviet PIO, NOS, old stock pulled from vintage electronic gear, custom caps supposedly designed specifically for passive guitar circuits, etc.

I had best luck with your garden variety 35¢ polyester cap. I didn’t find anything routinely better or worse than those. Because of the tolerances, I’d sometimes audition three or four .047s since I usually get them in a 5-pack and pick the one I thought sounded best out of the batch. But the differences, even with that, were slight most times.

Every so often one of the caps would sound noticeably better however, and I’d use that one. But most times the extra effort didn’t yield much improvement.

YMMV. But I’ve got a lot of miles under my belt when it comes to bass mods and rewiring projects. So I can only speak from my own experiences. And my experiences taught me that expensive and exotic caps have negligible to zero effect on the outcome. Cap values however did. So it’s worth experimenting with different values; or going with a cap switcher (often erroneously referred to as a “varitone”) if you find yourself liking more than one and can’t decide.

 

[bigtone23]

...I had best luck with your garden variety 35¢ polyester cap. I didn’t find anything routinely better or worse than those.
...And my experiences taught me that expensive and exotic caps have negligible to zero effect on the outcome. Cap values however did. So it’s worth experimenting with different values...

This is 100% spot on.
It amazes me to see $20 caps. For $20, one could get a whole new harness of 3 CTS pots (of the desired value and taper), a Switchcraft jack and a poly cap for a Jazz Bass. That is $$ better spent.

 

[Bassamatic]

Again - just in case anyone is not clear - the difference that different materials make is not the performance, but in STABILITY and TOLERANCE.
1. How close is the actual value is to the stated value? Some really cheap caps can be +/- 40%. However we choose the caps for sound not for other technical reasons and you probably can't hear that difference.
2. How stable it is over large temperature differences. Since it is being used at more or less the SAME temperature always, this is of no consequence.

 

[byacey]

Sorry but regardless of the value of the capacitor the voltage which is the most suitable for the Precision?

If you're really pounding on the strings, you might produce 500mV. Most capacitors at these capacitance values range from 100V to 1000V, so really anything you find will be acceptable as far as voltage goes.

 

[byacey]

Again - just in case anyone is not clear - the difference that different materials make is not the performance, but in STABILITY and TOLERANCE.
1. How close is the actual value is to the stated value? Some really cheap caps can be +/- 40%. However we choose the caps for sound not for other technical reasons and you probably can't hear that difference.
2. How stable it is over large temperature differences. Since it is being used at more or less the SAME temperature always, this is of no consequence.

Looking for a precise value cap is an exercise in chasing rainbows. Different amplifier inputs and different cables and lengths will load the bass differently. This will skew any repeatability as far as tone control settings go. Unless you have a 10 turn precision pot for the tone control with a gear reduction vernier readout, it's unlikely you will set the tone control in the same position with any accuracy. Likely, you wouldn't be able to resolve the difference by ear either.

 

[BassLife77]

No sense looking for precision capacitors because they didn't put them in P basses in the 60's. All my basses have 40 cent Nichicon polyester films and they sound great. I bought some Russian PIO's from Russia for 50 cents and didn't hear anything special. The reason the PIO's were so cheap the seller wasn't aware of the voodoo smoodoo in America. He sold them all out in one day.

 

[giacomobass]

Hi Pantofolaio79, I recently tried the following tone capacitors in a P-bass with the Antiquity II pickup; although not a Fender, it was made to Fender specs with an alder body and maple cap neck, so I guess it's comparable to your American (Standard?) P:

1. Sprague 225P 0.047μF 100V ±20%, measured capacity 46.2nF;
2. Fender 0.1μF 200V ±10% (the one you get for free with Fender CTS pots), measured at 101.0nF;
3. NOS ('80s) Sprague 225P 0.068μF 100V ±5%, measured at exactly 68.0nF;
4. Fender Ceramic Disc 0.05μF 100V ±20%, measured at 52.0nF.

My conclusions, after careful listening:

1. Beautifully detailed midrange, but with a very snappy attack, and somewhat lacking on the bass side.
2. FAT bass, with no snappiness at all, but very dull hi mids, and noticeably boomy on lower notes.
3. An acceptable compromise between the previous two, with nice round bass, but still lacking focus in the midrange.
4. My final choice: way more harmonic content and articulation; growly, open mids and deep, tight bass with no boominess at all, and an organic, woody attack which I love.

I play GHS Bass Boomers 3045M (45-105) with a pick and always keep volume and tone at 100%. Pots are 250K.