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Pro and Semipro players: How much training?

Pro and semipro bassists:How much training?

  • Music School

    Votes: 38 39.6%
  • Private lessons (including reading and theory)

    Votes: 25 26.0%
  • "Formally self taught"

    Votes: 25 26.0%
  • Strictly by ear

    Votes: 7 7.3%
  • TABs all the way

    Votes: 1 1.0%

  • Total voters
    96
I'm actually semi-pro these days, but was full-time in the 70s. I have a B. A. degree in music with theory emphasis. But, I had learned much of it already in high school. I was also writing and reading in high school, just from having studied a lot on my own. Originally, I learned piano by ear from a kid, then taught myself guitar at 13. First band at 15, as the guitarist, and that's when I played my first bass as well. Studied string bass in college and played with the Columbia Philharmonic Orchestra on string bass for six years. Earlier, I was the guitarist in a jazz and variety band six-nights-a-week for a couple of years after touring with a rock band the previous two years. During my orchestra years I also taught guitar and bass and played in a band as guitarist. I didn't make the switch full-time on electric untill 1988. Been doing it ever since (I have eight gigs this month), but also have been working various day jobs since the late 70s.

My training and experience have paid off immensely in my playing. Everyone should have that feeling of what it's like to go full-time music, if possible. That six-nights-a-week thing really taught me something. Also, during that time I got to play with some serious heavyweights. That's priceless.
 
I am a mixed bag as well, but voted for music school.
I played Pro, and Semi Pro years ago.
My learning background starts in grade school music class where I learned to play trumpet at age 11, and switched to bass at 13.(I'm 47 now)
Did all the usual stuff thru grade school/high school...ie, concerts, plays, stage band, etc. I also formally taught myself thru my school years, and played in a band with my twin brother who plays guitar, and a friend who was a drummer.

After high school, several Rock bands, and time on the road, I went to college and studied jazz for 2 years. After finishing college, I played with a few bands doing the odd gig here and there, and did some teaching for a few years, while doing the full time J-O-B thing. Also kept on with my own studies.

I then had a hiatus from any meaningful playing/studying, and only played when I had time, and for my own amusement. Now, I have the time again, and I am back to working on my studies and chops, and doing a few gigs for fun, and I will maybe get back into it semi pro again.
I continue to study and learn, and work on my own thing. I don't see an end to my learning in music.
 
Whats a pro?
A guy that makes his living of music... Thats me than...

Been formaly self taught, but I hit a wall when I tried to make a Funk/jazz band. Since I'm a seasoned player, I've played with many greats in my country, and when i made this band, they were all sooo much better than me because of their understanding of Jazz and Classical music. So i took private lessons with a Double bass teacher from Academy of Musical Arts in Sarajevo. Still taking them. He also plays electric so he's been showing me the cool stuff. Whis i had taken theese classes earlier.
 
OK, so this is far from scientific, but the majority of pro players who voted have had some sort of formal training. I think the results were pretty predictable.

And yet, tomorrow, some kid who can't find a C from a hole in the ground will come on here and tell us that "Paul McCartney can't read music and he's a pro." So who's going to break it to him that he's not Paul McCartney?
 
OK, so this is far from scientific, but the majority of pro players who voted have had some sort of formal training. I think the results were pretty predictable.

And yet, tomorrow, some kid who can't find a C from a hole in the ground will come on here and tell us that "Paul McCartney can't read music and he's a pro." So who's going to break it to him that he's not Paul McCartney?

What can you do, Jimmy? It's not against the law to have an opinion that is not based in Reality.
It's weird-I see the same thing with health and fitness. We all go to great lengths and expend great energy to avoid exercise and watching our diets when it would actually be easier to go to the gym, take a walk, and say no thanks to the Wendy sea salt fries and get the side salad instead.
When Jeff Berlin was on here getting the natives restless I couldn't help but think that many who were really flaming him would have been better served as players if they'd actually tried some of his concepts and ideas before they took all their energy to argue with him.
Oh well, lots of people talk about what to do and how to do it and then there's always a group of people that goes quietly about the business of actually accomplishing it. I have to agree that the statistics were about what I expected, too.
 
I'm not surprised that most pros (including me) report some history of formal training, but I do find it a bit surprising that so few people describe themselves as "strictly ear" players. I've actually known a fair number of excellent pro players who just play by ear. They are definitely in the minority among pros, but still a fair number of them out there IME.

Then again, perhaps conducting such a poll in a "bass instruction" internet forum might skew the results to under-represent ear players....
 
I'm not surprised that most pros (including me) report some history of formal training, but I do find it a bit surprising that so few people describe themselves as "strictly ear" players. I've actually known a fair number of excellent pro players who just play by ear. They are definitely in the minority among pros, but still a fair number of them out there IME.

True, especially players who came of age in the 50s, 60s and 70s in the Rock/Soul/Blues Circuit like Billy Sheehan, Dusty Hill, Geddy Lee, Tommy Shannon, Berry Oakley, Larry Taylor, Larry Graham, Billie Cox, Willie Weeks etc.
As Billy stated in an interview (and I can vouch from experience) it was possible to gig 6 or 7 nights a week playing Rock and Top 40 covers during that time. I know a lot of players from that era who cut their teeth on that circuit and learned by copying records before writing original tunes and bass lines using the musical ideas they picked up by ear.
There was really limited material available at that time-maybe the first Carol Kaye books, the Roger Filiberto methods for Mel Bay and some Jazz String Bass methods and teachers were few and far between (and never at Music Schools who looked on Electric Bass as a "toy" for the most part). Considering the abundance of information available now it's almost impossible to avoid "formal self-teaching" at the very least (even a subscription to Bass Player will do that). I'm not surprised that players who came of age in the 80s, 90s and 00s would be skewed toward Music Schools or Private Lessons.
 
True, especially players who came of age in the 50s, 60s and 70s in the Rock/Soul/Blues Circuit like Billy Sheehan, Dusty Hill, Geddy Lee, Tommy Shannon, Berry Oakley, Larry Taylor, Larry Graham, Billie Cox, Willie Weeks etc.
As Billy stated in an interview (and I can vouch from experience) it was possible to gig 6 or 7 nights a week playing Rock and Top 40 covers during that time. I know a lot of players from that era who cut their teeth on that circuit and learned by copying records before writing original tunes and bass lines using the musical ideas they picked up by ear.
There was really limited material available at that time-maybe the first Carol Kaye books, the Roger Filiberto methods for Mel Bay and some Jazz String Bass methods and teachers were few and far between (and never at Music Schools who looked on Electric Bass as a "toy" for the most part). Considering the abundance of information available now it's almost impossible to avoid "formal self-teaching" at the very least (even a subscription to Bass Player will do that). I'm not surprised that players who came of age in the 80s, 90s and 00s would be skewed toward Music Schools or Private Lessons.

An ear player hears the notes and responds, rather than the trained idea that you can learn to hear and see notes. Within the trained idea is the theory that has be documented and written about over the centuries, where as for the ear player there is what he can understand as explained to him in the time limits available to him, what he is listening to, or the person explaining it to him.

This is all very well but there are outside influences that can be considered for each of these players in the form of learning difficulties or problems.
Dyslexia for example can make a player belive he is an ear player because he cannot organise written material but can organise audio material. In day gone by before many modern education systems began to recognise such conditions, such students were branded stupid, un-teachable, and not worth the resources of a teacher or school to work with them one on one.

In recent years there has been an increase in those now recognised with learning difficultes in many areas where you would have thought it almost impossible to function. Actors such as Orlando Bloom, Henry Winkler, Patrick Dempsey, Anthony Hopkins, Whoopi Goldberg are just a few who suffer from Dyslexia and state that learning from scripts and retaining the information was not as easy for them as it seemed to others, but the found ways to do it.

When i moved to Secondary school i started to stuggle with subjects, and my music suffered. Eventully after being branded un-teachable with an inability to learn by a few teachers i was sent for special lessons to help me catch up. Luckly for me the teacher there quickly identified me as not stupid, but unable to read properly as my eye sight was blurring when i looked at small print. One pair of glasses later and i was back in class and getting back on top of my education. It could have been so easy for me to accept that situation of being branded un-teachable and un-able to learn if it had not been for the intervention and experience of that one teacher who correctly identified the real reason for me not learning. My desire to learn took me far and wide and kept me occupied and playing constantly in the desire for music.

This is in fact the way of those that want to learn, want to be involved, they will find ways to seek out teachers, lessons, new infomation regardless of obstacles. When i read about students or players not having the resources close to them as the reason why they don't do more with there music education, i know deep down that they would never really have a chance in certain areas of pro world music. Their attitude, desire if you will, is not there, and that is essential in the pro world. Attitude i find is what seperates a successful pro from the rest of the field. That attitude i believe is present in the learning stages of many crafts, to accumulate knowledge and skills that make it almost impossible for employers to say no to you and when the big opportunites arrive, they are equipped and ready to cope with them.

Yes a formal music education is not a pre-requsite to be coming famous and earning millions...if that is how you view the purpose of a musical education, because luck plays a part in that, not musical skills. I sometimes wonder how many players that are call themselves "ear players" just accept their situation because luck dealt them a good hand?
 
the first song i learned was "you really got me" (van halen version) by ear. then i chose songs with more notes as i went along. i got no real skills, but now i can figure out riffs in my head and play them cuz i know where the notes are before i pick up the bass.
 
the first song i learned was "you really got me" (van halen version) by ear. then i chose songs with more notes as i went along. i got no real skills, but now i can figure out riffs in my head and play them cuz i know where the notes are before i pick up the bass.

That's the time-honored way that a lot of Rock Bassists learn to play, Johnny A.
Of all things, that's what Jeff Berlin is talking about when he says that academic Rock courses aren't necessary. Rufus Reid said the same thing about it: "If you want to play Rock, find some players that are involved and you become involved." I don't really focus on Rock when I'm teaching (with the exception of some of the Technique Monsters like Billy Sheehan, Stu Hamm and Beaver Felton) but I do focus on why a line works and that often leads to chord theory and a lot of the James Jamerson lines which also inspired players like Jack Bruce, Paul McCartney, John Entwhistle and John Paul Jones in their styles.
I definitely started as an ear player along with some private lessons. My first tune learned by ear was "Grape Jam 1", a slow blues with a really simple bass line off of a Moby Grape LP. From there, I learned lines by Harvey Brooks off of Super Session, Jack Bruce off of the Cream records, Jack Cassidy off of Surrealistic Pillow and After Bathing at Baxters, and pretty much all of Hendrix's recordings. It was definitely that progression.
When I started studying reading and Jazz intently in High School, it was because I was running into bands like Mahavishnu Orchestra, Yes, Emerson, Lake and Palmer and Return to Forever who were playing forms that were too complex for me to hear. I was also aspiring to a career as a Studio Musician after meeting Carol Kaye and reading about Joe Osborne and other studio players in Guitar Player. That's what drove me to UNT and U of M and eventually to Nashville and my college gig.
In sum, I've always said that I'm more of an educated Rocker than anything else.
 
I started playing at 17 and was self taught for the first few years picking apart top 40 tracks by ear and working on fretting positions mostly. I took a few private lessons later but the closest tutor was around 3 hrs travelling there and back so I had around 5 lessons with the chap and picked apart what I could. There was a particular book I had that helped with some ideas - 'Teach Yourself Advanced Bass' by Clive Harrison, I found his take on things quite useful back then. Later down the line I attended a 32 week course at The Guitar Institute in London in it's very early beginnings, it was quite a small place at the time and was very informal which meant I could get to know and pick the brains of some great tutors there. Later on a again I auditioned for and spent 2 years at the Institute with 16 other bass students which was a nice angle for swapping ideas and influences, some great players. I've worked pro and semi-pro depending on the stability of income and whats happening at the time.
 
the first song i learned was "you really got me" (van halen version) by ear. then i chose songs with more notes as i went along. i got no real skills, but now i can figure out riffs in my head and play them cuz i know where the notes are before i pick up the bass.
Johnny, you're what's known as a "natural." Some people can put it all together without knowing the "good stuff," as Jeff calls it, but I've found that the vast majority of people can't. By the time I started playing bass and guitar, I knew how to read already, and there is no doubt in my mind that if I hadn't, I wouldn't have been able to play. I do have a very good ear, but being able to hum something and finding it on the neck are two different things. So I have a lot of respect for those who can without formal training, but I dare say they're the exceptions and not the norm. The norm is what my brother did...he gave his guitar to me because he couldn't do anything except play "Sunshine Of Your Love" badly ;)
 
Interesting, the ear players are 11% . When you consider that that would include Billy Sheehan and Geddy Lee, two of my favorite Rockers, or Willie Weeks ( I gave him a few lessons but he was a Master already!) pretty fascinating. Think how hard they worked to create their musical visions and formidable skills.

Maybe for by-ear players, you either have to make it big, or you don't make it all.

Without reading ability, it's difficult to make money teaching and maybe also in the studio. So, you either have to make a living on just performing, or find another career.
 
Johnny, you're what's known as a "natural." Some people can put it all together without knowing the "good stuff," as Jeff calls it, but I've found that the vast majority of people can't. By the time I started playing bass and guitar, I knew how to read already, and there is no doubt in my mind that if I hadn't, I wouldn't have been able to play. I do have a very good ear, but being able to hum something and finding it on the neck are two different things. So I have a lot of respect for those who can without formal training, but I dare say they're the exceptions and not the norm. The norm is what my brother did...he gave his guitar to me because he couldn't do anything except play "Sunshine Of Your Love" badly ;)

By ear is how I started. I remember sitting in my mother's lap and messing around on the piano. By age 8 I was making up ditties, and could play a variety of songs I had heard. Played my first ever gig at the age of 12 at the country club on piano, by ear. That ear training I did at so early an age helps me to this day, like when I practice by listening to a CD while driving, or when I play a request I've never played while onstage. I must say it was very interesting when I first began to learn theory to finally have names for all the things I knew by ear, and to understand how things work together. It's very rewarding to have an ear and know theory, too.
 
Maybe for by-ear players, you either have to make it big, or you don't make it all.

Without reading ability, it's difficult to make money teaching and maybe also in the studio. So, you either have to make a living on just performing, or find another career.
I think that's a VERY astute observation. My band is certainly not a bunch of rock stars, but we all make a pretty decent middle class living despite being way too old for this s--- ;) No doubt in my mind it's because we all read and we can do gigs that require it.
 
Ex-pro/semi-pro here (I was earning 100% of my living with music at one point however I was still living slightly off my parents (I was only 18) so...). I had proper instrument lessons on guitar from when I was 10 to when I was 13 and bass from 12 to 19 (when my teacher sadly passed away), I decided to officially learn theory (grade 5) when I was 18 and had a months worth of lessons and then passed the test with two marks off a distinction. However I still can't sight read music. I did however have a good idea of the theory behind grade 5 before I got the lessons (but I couldn't read western notation). I now play a lot from ear, and when learning songs for my pro wedding band and semi-pro sessions I always learnt by ear and chord sheets.
 
Hey Roy, here is my situation: I consider my self a semi pro now but for over 15 years i was a working professional musician. My background was school orchestra, self taught music theory, a good ear for key, tempo and styles, varied experiences, and later music college and advanced private lessons.

Skills that were most important good ear, ability to read and adapt, versatility being able to cover a variety of situations from classical, musicals, rock, R&B, country, jazz, big band and any thing else that was available and my knack for cobbling together equipment especially PA systems and keep them working.

FWIW Playing bass was often not my 'primary' function in many bands and sometimes I was hired as a driver or roadie of one sort or another and stepped for the bass player in an emergency.

I traveled coast to coast, Canada, Mexico and Central America and did a couple of cruise ship gigs, played a Broadway show, Vegas revues, casuals of all sorts and any thing else to keep playing.

The low point was driving an " up & coming" comic (that never went) on a cross country tour, and never laughing at my passenger who was really not all that funny. He'd spend hours trying all his jokes on me and never even a smile from me. The most fun I had was seeing & meeting some great comics and magicians Sam and Bill we miss ya!

If I can pass along anything to students with out being cynical is there are many great unknown players, it's a big world and it takes a lot of luck and persistence to make it. Just being a rock or punk player and expecting to be a professional is a foolish dream, less than 1% make a decent living.

I am still learning about music and developing my skills as a player many years off the road, wish I had and knew then what I do now.......
 
By ear, it has served me well since 1967.

Back in the 60's there was no such thing as TABs we would no doubt have used them if they had been available. The local school had guitar night classes so the guitarist and I enrolled but after 4 weeks they still hadn't got past tuning up so we quit.

I have recently read up on a bit of theory which ties together a lot of what my fingers already know, but have never thought about learning to read because I have never seen anything that I have ever played written down.
 

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