Double Bass Problems sharing stands...

[Louie_Louie]

Hello all,

I recently joined an orchestra where the bass section normally has two players to a stand. I'm aware of how standard this is for professional orchestras but I have never had to do this yet in any of my playing experiences.
When I'm sharing a stand I cannot see the notes at all. Little things like knowing if the notes a line or a space becomes a real difficulty for me. I don't have trouble with vision in any other aspect of life so I don't believe the answer is glasses. This makes it very hard for me to perform well when I'm having such a hard time just seeing the notes. Has anyone ever went through this and have any advice for me?

P.s in my search for similar threads I came across someone saying that most professionals memorize their parts and just use the music as a reference. Can anyone confirm the validity of this statement?

 

[bassmastan]

Hi Louie,

I play in the Orchestra of Northern NY, and we have the principal and Asst. Principal sharing a stand, while the 3rd chair and myself use two different stands, the reasons being:

1. I sit at a low stool height while the 3rd chair sits at a height of almost standing
2. We both wear glasses and we both need to see the music
3. I have a really big bass that would sort of force one of us from being way off, to avoid a bow hitting a bass.
4. It was more comfortable this way, plus we coordinated our page turning so it wasn't as though we weren't playing
5. Better angles for sound from the whole section

I am a proponent of having individual stands for everyone, I feel as though they allow the player more space, as well as the ability to turn slightly so the FF's can face outwards...

Personally I love the Viennese orchestras that put their bassists on risers and have them facing the audience head on, they all have their own stand and they're power houses.

If I were you I would first talk to the principal of your section, maybe that can be worked out with another stand. Or maybe something to help magnify the music, you may be able to request a bigger/blown up score that may help as well...

On the grounds of glasses, talk to your eye doc about that, you might be able to get a magnified set of glasses that way you can stay where need be.

Lastly: in terms of memorizing your parts, I agree most of what you have should be off the page, however G-d bless you if you can memorize all of Tchaik 4! or Shosti 5! It's hard and the music should be there to help you as much as you need... The important parts should be off the page so you can watch the conductor, but some parts are so tricky you have to watch the music, or it's just really hard! (Check out the bass part to the Vaughan Williams Tuba Concerto... If you take your eyes off the page you could miss everything!)

You should talk to your principal, and if need be both of you should go to the conductor/music director on the subject (don't go directly as there is a hierarchy in sections)... I can't see why they wouldn't want to help you out!

 

[MikeCanada]

There are a lot of us who don't have vision problems in other areas of our lives, but have trouble seeing music from time to time. Sometimes it's when you're sharing a stand and it's way too far away, sometimes it's a bad part that is formatted poorly, in a difficult to read font, has been photocopied one too many times, or has been shrunk from that weird orchestra part size of paper to fit something smaller like 8 1/2" x 11". More often then not I can overcome just about any bad part, (which might be from reading a lot of hand transcribed parts) but the thing that sinks me almost every time is poor lighting. Plenty of concert halls, churches, auditoriums, and whatever else is being used as a rehearsal/performance space have really poor lighting, or lighting that might be great for some things but horrible for reading music. Lots of stages have lights blasting at them from the front of house so the audience can see the performers, but often these cast shadows on your music, or the overhead lighting that should be lighting your music is 20+ feet above your head and just not cutting it. Some orchestras provide stand lights, but a lot of them don't.

I agree that talking to your stand partner, the principal of the section, the stage manager, (if applicable) and the music director/conductor is a good idea. If the lighting isn't great you might be able to get a light which could help. You might have a stand partner who is particularly gifted at seeing music so you can move your stand closer to you, or you might have a principal/music director that has no problem with individual stands. In the event that none of those are an option, then you might want to pursue some glasses as a last resort. Keep in mind you not only need to be able to see your music but you also need to be able to see the principal and the conductor which will all be at different distances. That might complicate things a bit, but chances are your optometrist has handled similar cases.

As for everything being memorized, yes and no. Many professionals and professional orchestras have played a lot of the standard repertoire countless times, to the point where memorizing the music is an unintentional side effect of their day job. They also spend a significant amount of time on a lot of the more challenging excerpts and passages that are not traditionally considered excerpts at some point during their career so they are largely calling upon muscle memory/autopilot to get through those sections. Even if you cannot play through an entire symphony without the part in front of you, you can often get to a point where it is largely just a reference, or you are reading it a few bars at a time so you can still watch the conductor/principal/soloist. With non-standard repertoire, new/commissioned pieces, concertos that don't get played very often, etc. Most people are still reading the music in performance. A lot of that stuff doesn't get much rehearsal time and you might never see it again, so you have more practical things to spend your time memorizing.

Best of luck!

 

[SVT4001]

Great advice above, I would like to add that there are plenty of portable, battery powered music lights available. Their LED lights are quite bright, and they are pretty easy on batteries.

Joe

 

[MikeCanada]

Should have mentioned that. The orchestra might have a box of Manhasset lights in a closet somewhere that they pull out occasionally for situations where they are needed and that might be more desirable for concerts as they will look uniform if there are others on the stage. The portable LED lights are a lot more user friendly especially if a power outlet is hard to come by or you have to bring your own.

I used to have on in my bass case just in case, and apparently it's not there anymore... Guess I know what I'm getting myself for Christmas this year.

 

[David Potts]

If you HAVE to share a stand point your body (imaginary arrow from your chest) to split the angle between the conductor and the music so that you minimize the amount you turn your head each way. I personally find sitting on the "inside" (to the right of the stand) easiest. The most compelling reason I can think of for sharing is page turning, not always easy but something important to learn.

Here we can buy cheap magnifying spectacles at pharmacies (drug stores). They are numbered for degree of magnifying. Take a sheet of music and simulate the distance and angle that you wish to focus. I used these for years, one nearer focal length for reading, one middle for doing woodwork and one longer to enlarge music that was about 4 feet away. I found rimless ones best for reading the music and had them half way down my nose so that I looked over the top of them to see the conductor. I agree that setting the height of the stand, the distance between you and the angles that each must turn requires negotiation with your stand partner. If all else fails then try separate stands.

Cheers, DP

 

[Les Fret]

Isn't there an easy solution? just bring your own stand (or ask for an extra one from the orchestra). I don't see the problem in that.

 

[MikeCanada]

Easy solution? Obviously you aren't aware you are in the Orchestral Technique section...

There are a lot of reasons why some conductors are very insistent on bass sections sharing stands. Some of them employ questionable logic to get there, but we've had our fair share of conductor discussions here. I will say from personal experience I feel more connected to a stand partner than I do to the person on the other side of me in the section sharing a stand with someone else, although that relationship is more about inside jokes or sideways glances when someone doesn't count a block of rests properly, misses a big dynamic change, etc. more than unifying the section musically. Some of our long-time section players here might have different opinions about that, but there are benefits. There are also drawbacks, and the big two are being able to clearly see your music, and being able to position yourself where you can see the music and the conductor at the same time. I prefer sitting "inside" because the latter is less of an issue, and because I enjoy playing the bottom octave in divisi sections.

I'm guessing one of the main reasons it was done historically was when parts were copied by hand it was quite an undertaking to write out twice as many parts and when music was first printed, printing was very expensive/labour intensive. Now, it's "tradition" and orchestras aren't too fond of straying from that.

 

[Les Fret]

Easy solution? Obviously you aren't aware you are in the Orchestral Technique section...

There are a lot of reasons why some conductors are very insistent on bass sections sharing stands. Some of them employ questionable logic to get there.

haha. Yes that answer was to be expected. I know it is not possible to use your own stand in every orchestra but I mostly prefer to have my own stand. Besides bonding with your neighbor and space issues I don't see much benefit of sharing a stand.

Benefits of having your own stand on the other hand (some have been mentioned):
-better visibility
-better sight at the conductor
-you can write your own fingerings in the music (if you are allowed). Not everyone plays the same fingering and with difficult passages that might help you to remember how you did it.
-more room for your bow.

 

[David Potts]

In an orchestra of 100 there would be about 70 stands on stage if the 60 strings all shared. If everyone had their own stand (100 stands) this might wipe out the audience's view? Also the orchestral footprint would be huge, bigger than most concert platforms? Whole string sections would stop playing to turn pages? Of course this is OTT

 

[Les Fret]

good point David!

 

[MikeCanada]

-you can write your own fingerings in the music (if you are allowed). Not everyone plays the same fingering and with difficult passages that might help you to remember how you did it.

Fingerings are an issue for sure. I'm in 5ths and have yet to share a stand with someone else who also is in 5ths, so that would be a huge issue. I also believe that the occasional fingering isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I have never liked seeing fingerings over/under every single note in a passage unless every single note is being shifted to. The Canadian School of Double Bass (Joel Quarrington) has a really great fingering marking system. If you are shifting down to a particular finger, that finger is underlined. For example if I'm playing a D on my G string and want to shift down to a B with my first finger, I would write 1 above the B. To shift up, an overline is used, but I have no idea how to get one of those on a computer. If the rest of the notes in the passage stay within the reach of a minor third (a "position" if you will in 5ths) from the note with the fingering indicated, no additional fingering is required until another shift happens. For example if you have an F# and G# following the B on the G string you are playing with your first finger, you know it is in the same position on the D string and you are not shifting to the G# because there isn't a fingering indicating you should. It ends up involving fewer written in fingerings while being a very clear system. And is probably explained significantly better by Joel and his book and ebook.

In an orchestra of 100 there would be about 70 stands on stage if the 60 strings all shared. If everyone had their own stand (100 stands) this might wipe out the audience's view? Also the orchestral footprint would be huge, bigger than most concert platforms? Whole string sections would stop playing to turn pages? Of course this is OTT

David, the impact of stands on how much an audience can see is a very important aspect of a performance that we often don't consider. Having watched many student and professional recitals over the years, when parts are memorized and there is no need for a music stand, you really are taking down a barrier between you and the audience. Likewise, I have seen plenty of new music performances where multiple stands are required for a particular piece, and it's a completely different experience. A solo violin work from a composer friend of mine is a continual barrage of 16th notes for the entire duration of the piece that doesn't allow the performer an opportunity to turn pages. The performer has three options: memorize which would be next to impossible for this particular work, use a total of 7 music stands, or have a page turner. I have seen it performed with 7 music stands, which usually gets a laugh out of the audience as it is being set on stage and creates a huge wall cutting off the performer from the audience, and I have seen it with a page turner, which is also quite distracting given they are almost unheard of for instruments other than piano. The sheet music ends up taking away from the music being created, which is frustrating to say the least.

The visual impact of a stand is something we rarely pause to consider. Imagine that same orchestra of 100 where instead of 70 or 100 stands on stage, there are none. It would be an entirely different performance experience for the audience. I have seen plenty of people that are now using tablets on stands instead of traditional music stands and that already greatly reduces the visual footprint from the audience perspective. Maybe having music on something like Google glass is the answer? I don't have an orchestra to experiment with or a technology background to make it happen, but I'm curious.

 

[bejoyous]

"Hey principal bass, do you mind if I use my own stand and music, that way I can mark in bowings and fingerings that'll be useful when I'm practicing at home?"

 

[David Potts]

I remember reading of Von Bulow and his orchestra in a music dictionary (Oxford, I think), saying that the whole orchestra was required to play standing and from memory. The program was Leonora Overture No.3, Beethoven 7th Symphony, Piano Concerto in D minor and the Brahms 2nd. Symphony. Von Bulow played the piano concerto. Not a single music stand or sheet of music was on the platform during the whole performance.

I think I would rather put up with an uncomfortable stool and sharing a stand!!

 

[Les Fret]

I remember reading of Von Bulow and his orchestra in a music dictionary (Oxford, I think), saying that the whole orchestra was required to play standing and from memory. The program was Leonora Overture No.3, Beethoven 7th Symphony, Piano Concerto in D minor and the Brahms 2nd. Symphony. Von Bulow played the piano concerto. Not a single music stand or sheet of music was on the platform during the whole performance.

Good idea. Next time play a whole Bruckner symphony from memory. Wonder how long that would take for an orchestra....

 

[robobass]

No one has mentioned there there is there is something in between sight reading and memorization. If you have practiced your part at home properly, then you should be able to execute it at rehearsal/concert even if the stand is not right in your face. I have almost always shared a stand in my playing career. Only when the light or the printing was very poor have I had a problem reading the part.

 

[Roger Davis]

The bass (and its player) have such a large footprint the surely an individual stand is de rigeur. On the subject of specs, I use what I call my 'computer glasses'. These have a 2 -3 foot focal length, longer than for reading books but a lot shorter than distance. When others have stand lights I can usually manage without.