I think you might have hit the nail in the head here.
All this time I have been scratching my head....
ZP is a German bow player himself.
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Double Bass Prochownik bows
- Thread starter LouisF
- Start date
I think you might have hit the nail in the head here.
All this time I have been scratching my head....
ZP is a German bow player himself.
Perhaps not in the world of bows, but in my world it is.
Read: Rod is poor and stingy.
His German bows are...incredible. Honestly, they have VERY high craftsmanship and better quality frogs than what he uses on his french. I like that he makes a lot of his German models with Viennese Frogs that are lower, they're VERY easy to play and are very into the string. His French bows sound and play nothing at all like his German bows, they have a lot of air in the sound and are too light for orchestral playing in my opinion. As I said earlier, two of my colleagues own Prochownik German bows, 2 of them are 113g! and the other is 125. When I first heard him say "113", I started to laugh, I could pick up the bow with my pinky, but then I put it on the string and found out how articulate and easy to play it was. Then again, if you're looking for a good "do everything bow" but aren't too concerned with sound and you're on a limited budget this would make an excellent bow. Granted if you have a bit more money it would be better to wait and find an 80's Reid Hudson in the mid 2000.00 CAD range.
The main reason I bought one of his bows is because I wanted something light, that plays easily and can do all sorts of tricks. For $1800.00 (which is a lot of money granted), I still wasn't expected much in terms of tone. I tried out 8 of his bows at once, some of them had no sound at all, (funnily those were his "solo" model bows), the sartory had a nice grabby sound but it was too short in length for what I wanted. He included one bow that he made completely different from all of his previous bows, and I ended up buying that one because it was a rarity in tone and volume, so I got a very good bow for a good price. Also, his bows are not made out of very good wood. They seem to be Pernambuco (very low grade), but they could be a lesser known wood as well. Regardless, for $1800.00 they work well, but do not have the tone of a FINE bow.
Thanks for your explanation.
once again, perhaps it's the french/german thing.
I do not actually own a ZP bow, but having tried many of his bows, as you have, I have not come to that conclusion.
I totally respect your opinion but I have found several sticks with a very nice tone, and I found them to be very boomy. With a very strong articulation that actually projected very well.
He searches hard for a less dense grade of pernambucco, sometimes as much as 40% less dense. It tends to work better for the type of "tuning" he gives his bows. I would not qualify it as a lower grade wood, as in "not as good", just because most bow makers prefer heavier grades.
My impression back then was that regardless of the price, I preferred his bows to most other makers, even though I was playing with an extremely long and heavy bow at that time.
This makes sense, especially in regards to the density. A few days before I purchased the bow I took all of them to an unnamed bow historian who happened to have a Lucchi Meter. We tested all the both, and he gave me a lot of useful information about the grade of the wood, he did mention that these bows are very much less dense, which is a huge contrast to my Sartory style Snakewood Heavy Bow. Regardless, I think they're fine bows but it's important to try a lot of them because quality control is an issue as he makes a lot at once. I sometimes refer to the Prochownik as "transparent" in tone. This can be great if you have an old Busan that has a wonderful tone on its own. It seems that Prochownik's bows are very suited to a Viennese style of playing. Quick bow, full bow, over the fingerboard, air to the sound, not for those who like to push.
Well, I tried out both Lucchi and Prochownik bows (as well as a couple of others last year) and went the ZP bow (german) It's my second one from him. The first (when I started playing again seriously about 6/7 years ago) was relatively light (124 gr); this one is 134 - big, round singing tone, with lots of bite/"push". An excellent bow (at half the price of the other etc)
LF
LF
I take it that you tried a "Lucchi and Sons" bow? The "Lucci - Cremona" bows are incredibly expensive and are made by the master himself.
That's interesting. His website quotes "750.00 EUROS and 4000.00 EURO"
4000.00 Euro's for a modern bow is not exactly "competitive" pricing. I'd take the Prochownik at a FRACTION of the cost any day.
George Vance was kind enough to send me four Prochownik French bows and allowed me ample time to try them. They all differed to some degree but each was quite playable. The one I selected to purchase seemed neither too heavy nor too light. I don't have a scale but judge it to weigh somewhere between another bow that I have which weighs 134g and my KSB C. Loveri, which weighs 146g. I has a lizzard wrap (no longer available on his bows) and is well balanced. The only thing that bothered me about it was the bad hair, but I figured that I could take care of that.
A couple of hours ago, Mr Prochownik and his lovely niece visited my office. He has relatives here in Chicago and visits regularly. We spent well over an hour together discussing his carreer, his bow making principles and methods, and his views on double bass construction.
I had my bow with me and asked him to look it over. He immediately noticed the state of the hair and promised to send me a new hank of his premium bow hair upon his return to Canada. I'm very thankful for the opportunity to meet him and to tap some of his great knowledge.
Mr. Prochownik re-iterated that he believes his bows are somewhat different than others and that not everyone will agree with his ideas. Nonetheless, as a professional double bass orchestral player, he knows the requirements of bass players and continues his efforts to serve their needs.
A couple of hours ago, Mr Prochownik and his lovely niece visited my office. He has relatives here in Chicago and visits regularly. We spent well over an hour together discussing his carreer, his bow making principles and methods, and his views on double bass construction.
I had my bow with me and asked him to look it over. He immediately noticed the state of the hair and promised to send me a new hank of his premium bow hair upon his return to Canada. I'm very thankful for the opportunity to meet him and to tap some of his great knowledge.
Mr. Prochownik re-iterated that he believes his bows are somewhat different than others and that not everyone will agree with his ideas. Nonetheless, as a professional double bass orchestral player, he knows the requirements of bass players and continues his efforts to serve their needs.
He could easily charge 1k more for his bows. They sound excellent. I'd be curious to pick your brain about what Mr. Prochowniks principals are!
Your perspective is from America with an exchange rate that is not too favorable for the US$ these days. Mr. Lucchi has been making bows for many years, and the decline of the dollar is a more recent phenomenon. If the Euro was on par with the dollar then his prices would be in the same ballpark as Susan Lipkin's bows. She and Mr. Lucchi are regarded to be in the elite category of modern bowmaking masters, IMO. Also, I would expect that historically most of Mr Lucchi's bows are sold in Europe. With the current exchange rates he may not be selling as many bows in the US, but any decrease in US demand hasn't necessitated a price reduction.
You can certainly take the Prochownik bow, anytime you choose, but you are not likely to be purchasing a bow that is of comparable quality to a G. Lucchi - Cremona bow. Your purchase decision reflects your personal values, and is lacking any experience of playing a Lucchi bow, as I read your post. Please don't take this as a personal attack, it is not intended to be. But if a G. Lucchi bow is a better bow than the Prochownik, then it is a personal value decision as to whether the difference is worth any particular amount of money. Some will pick one, and some will pick the other.
Cheers,
Jim
Jim,
I'm afraid your remarks are directed at me - and I did try a Lucchi bow - went all the way to Boston to meet Marco Coppobiardi who represents him in this country and had the bow for ten days on two of my basses.
My other bows are by William Halsey and Marco Pasquino and the Lucchi bow was simply not as good. Mr Prochownik and I have a long relationship. When I started back playing bass, I started back on a bow of his (126 gr) that I eventually outgrew - and he made this particular bow specifically for my specs and it is a world class bow for half of Sr. Lucchi's price.
Also, I took the Lucchi bow to a few other people to check out - we were all disappointed it in - and especially of the fit of the frog and screw into the wood and the quality of the sound it drew.
I have absolutely no doubt that Sr. Lucchi and his son are great artists and craftsmen. I only know that this particular case was a disappointment - and a severe disappointment.
I also know that the Prochownik bow is a joy to play.
I hope that sets the record straight in this specific case.
Louis
I'm afraid your remarks are directed at me - and I did try a Lucchi bow - went all the way to Boston to meet Marco Coppobiardi who represents him in this country and had the bow for ten days on two of my basses.
My other bows are by William Halsey and Marco Pasquino and the Lucchi bow was simply not as good. Mr Prochownik and I have a long relationship. When I started back playing bass, I started back on a bow of his (126 gr) that I eventually outgrew - and he made this particular bow specifically for my specs and it is a world class bow for half of Sr. Lucchi's price.
Also, I took the Lucchi bow to a few other people to check out - we were all disappointed it in - and especially of the fit of the frog and screw into the wood and the quality of the sound it drew.
I have absolutely no doubt that Sr. Lucchi and his son are great artists and craftsmen. I only know that this particular case was a disappointment - and a severe disappointment.
I also know that the Prochownik bow is a joy to play.
I hope that sets the record straight in this specific case.
Louis
Guys - did you compare the Prochownik to the 'G. Lucchi - Cremona' or the 'Lucchi & Sons' bows? My opinion is that the 'G. Lucchi - Cremona' bows are considered by many to be in the same league as the Lipkins bows. There is a significant difference between the G. Lucchi - Cremona bows and the Lucchi & Sons bows, although the price on the latter is certainly not inexpensive, especially with the current exchange rates.
I also did not intend to imply that the Prochownik bows are not QUALITY bows, as are bows by many other makers like Reid Hudson for example (of which I've played a few). But I have seen a member on this forum sell a Reid Hudson bow after purchasing a Lipkins at about twice the price of what he was asking for his RH. Was it worth the difference? To that bassist, with those two bows, it was. To another, like the purchaser of the RH, perhaps not (or why not buy a Likpins instead?).
The intent of my post was three-fold:
I am not intending to challenge your experiences or criticize your choices.
Jim
I also did not intend to imply that the Prochownik bows are not QUALITY bows, as are bows by many other makers like Reid Hudson for example (of which I've played a few). But I have seen a member on this forum sell a Reid Hudson bow after purchasing a Lipkins at about twice the price of what he was asking for his RH. Was it worth the difference? To that bassist, with those two bows, it was. To another, like the purchaser of the RH, perhaps not (or why not buy a Likpins instead?).
The intent of my post was three-fold:
- to point out the unfavorable exchange rate situation which drives up the price of Lucchi bows at the present time in the US is a recent phenomenon
- to opine that the G. Lucchi - Cremona bows are very high quality, and to point out that your experiences seem to be based on the 'Lucchi & Sons' bows and don't necessarily apply to the 'G. Lucchi - Cremona' bows
- and, to point out that when there is a perceived difference in quality between two bows, then it is a personal value decision as to whether the difference is worth any particular difference in price
I am not intending to challenge your experiences or criticize your choices.
Jim
No offense taken - I don't remember if it was a Lucchi or Lucchi & Sons bow (probably the later) but my only point was that at that price point ($4000) I would have expected better quality. Even given a significant reduction in recent exchange rates - say bringing it down to the $2500/$3000 range - I would have not have found the bow interesting.
But again, I want to emphasize my point, which was just one experience with one bow from a very, very distinguished maker and his workshop.
Louis
PS: I entered this in the "Basses" forum under "London Road Trip" - it speaks to the same issue of exchange rates. I think it will be only a question of time before we see high end Chinese basses reflect the weak dollar. Maybe it'll mean the continuing renaissance in American bass making!
I was in London and Paris last week for (non-bass) business, but found time to stop in and meet Tony Hrouska at the Contrabass Shoppe south of London. Tony was very gracious and knowledgeable with his time, taking seveal basses out for me to play, including his Gracino, a Briggs English bass, a Hawkes Panormo, and a Swedish bass that I swear could pass as Italian. (all of these are detailed on his website)
The probelm, of course, is the weakness of the dollar v. pound. A £50K bass is $100,000 US now-a-days, and that does give one pause, even for investment grade instruments. Still, it's worth seeing what he has on hand, and the care that he (and Martin Bailey in London who I take it does the bulk of the restorations) have done with some pretty amazing basses.
In the small world department, Tony now has Ted Moniak (who used to be at David Gage) working for him. Ted, who had a bass shop in the Rockies several years ago, saw my performance in Patrick Suskind's one-man play, THE DOUBLE BASS, when I did it in Colorado. Fortunately he liked it!
Finally, I also met (separately) with Godfrey Sheppard - whose name came up on the cornerless/pear-shaped bass thread. Godfrey is a very nice man who makes a very decent bass for UKL6000 (about $12,000). I didn't get to play his cornerless bass, but the Italian model he showed me was very solidly made, with a very clear, strong tone.
Again, the dollar v. pound does work against him, but bassists in the UK or EU (where the Euro is currently strong against the pound) would do well to look at both.
Louis
But again, I want to emphasize my point, which was just one experience with one bow from a very, very distinguished maker and his workshop.
Louis
PS: I entered this in the "Basses" forum under "London Road Trip" - it speaks to the same issue of exchange rates. I think it will be only a question of time before we see high end Chinese basses reflect the weak dollar. Maybe it'll mean the continuing renaissance in American bass making!
I was in London and Paris last week for (non-bass) business, but found time to stop in and meet Tony Hrouska at the Contrabass Shoppe south of London. Tony was very gracious and knowledgeable with his time, taking seveal basses out for me to play, including his Gracino, a Briggs English bass, a Hawkes Panormo, and a Swedish bass that I swear could pass as Italian. (all of these are detailed on his website)
The probelm, of course, is the weakness of the dollar v. pound. A £50K bass is $100,000 US now-a-days, and that does give one pause, even for investment grade instruments. Still, it's worth seeing what he has on hand, and the care that he (and Martin Bailey in London who I take it does the bulk of the restorations) have done with some pretty amazing basses.
In the small world department, Tony now has Ted Moniak (who used to be at David Gage) working for him. Ted, who had a bass shop in the Rockies several years ago, saw my performance in Patrick Suskind's one-man play, THE DOUBLE BASS, when I did it in Colorado. Fortunately he liked it!
Finally, I also met (separately) with Godfrey Sheppard - whose name came up on the cornerless/pear-shaped bass thread. Godfrey is a very nice man who makes a very decent bass for UKL6000 (about $12,000). I didn't get to play his cornerless bass, but the Italian model he showed me was very solidly made, with a very clear, strong tone.
Again, the dollar v. pound does work against him, but bassists in the UK or EU (where the Euro is currently strong against the pound) would do well to look at both.
Louis
Not necessarily true, as China keeps the value of its currency artificially deflated - it's a "nationalized" economy.
