Question on headroom, Cutting through the mix.

[laflamme]

Hi all,
I have a Thunderfunk tb750 (750 watts) and I am driving two Fender rumble 2x8 cabinets. I had a gig last night and I have also noticed this in rehearsal, my amp sounds great and loud, but once the band gets into full swing, It feels like the tone is very compressed with low definition. I am not really sure what to do to cut through better , or I wonder if the amp doesnt have enough headroom. I only have the gain set at 10oclock and the volume between 4 and 5. If I set them higher than that I am way too loud on the slow soft songs. It seems like everything is muddy and when I play bass lines that need some high end sizzle, it doesnt really make it. I have tried dialing in more midrange but still not really cutting through on the groovin tunes.
I have switched cabinets between dual aguilar DB1X12's and still the same issue. I am beginning to think that my amp limiter or compressor is kicking in but I have set it to off.

I would appreciate any advice. I am thinking of getting a different head (maybe a fender tb1200 or Mesa basis, D800+ or something else). The cabs really sound good and are rated at 300W each so I think they are fine).

Thanks,
Peter

 

[Funkmabassup]

Have you tried eq in your treble frequencies? You have alot of eq options on the thunderfunk with those sweepable frequencies on the amp should do the trick, also thunderfunks are known for cutting through(i have no experience with those amps)

What kind of bass do you play? what kind of strings do you use? I dont really think the TF is the problem here

 

[Omega Monkey]

The most obvious/likely issue is just not enough speaker area. 4 8s or 2 12s are not really much if you play in a louder band. Either adding more cabs to either setup (might not be possible if you're already at your amps minimum impedance), or just getting something else a bit bigger should solve that.

But where are the cabs pointing? Even 4 8s stacked vertically only comes up to about waist level. Which means ALL your treble is going straight to your pants and never making it to your ears. So if your volume is sufficient but you're not getting that definition, try pointing the cabs more at your ears, either by raising up, tilting, etc... or even just moving further away (but on axis).

If you have tweeter controls on your cabs, are they up or down? if you are filtering off everything above 3k or so because the tweeter is off, you will just get, well, bass.

Also, carving out some of the low mids and raising overall volume might give you a little more definition as well. Everyone says "dont scoop your midz!!!!" but if you're blasting out 400Hz or something, it's just going to sound like mud. Really depends on your bass and your rig.

 

[Giffro]

If that amp head puts out 4ohms maybe you are driving it into a 2ohm load with 2 cabs and possibly damaging it? ask the experts on that head. I know a lot of Fender Rumble cabs are 8ohms so you may be ok at using 2 in parallel bringing it down to your head's 4ohm max..best check on that anyway.

 

[MarkA]

The Thunderfunk TFB 750 is 750 Watts into 2 Ohms, more like 600 Watts into 4 Ohms. The 550 and preceding amps are 4 Ohms minimum.

I've had a 550 for a little while and have considered trying a 750 or 800 precisely because the low end on the 550 is somewhat compressed (which some people prefer - it does make it more manageable in some ways) and the 750/800 are supposed to be more open in the lows and have more dynamic headroom. That said, I've gigged the 550 twice now (cab used was a MAS112, which is more like a potent 2x12 in terms of size and output) and had no problems being heard clearly, even driving an 8 Ohm load, though that low-end compression thing (which, again, some people like and perceive as "tight") was in effect and bugged me a bit -- I could still drive the band, but I noticed the difference vs. playing my GBE 1200. The TF should be able to dial in a good and present "gig tone" in most situations.

(Edit: I hear a bit of compression and/or attenuation at all volumes, but, pushing 8 Ohms with the 550 on a loudish gig, I likely was getting some power section compression on top of that -- not sure if/how the limiter functions when it's "off" or if the amp has any other limiting/power management. FWIW, the rest of the band said the sound was "great" but I felt the difference in "pop" vs the GBE which, to be fair, is almost double the wattage and more than double the weight of the 550.)

Four Rumble 8s does not sound like a lot of speaker to me - it would depend on the situation. Their 300 Watt rating (I'm assuming each cab is 8 Ohms) is most likely a thermal rating -- you could blow a driver with much less than that if you concentrate a lot of it in the low end and hit the cabs hard (your ear is your friend here -- listen to see if the cabs are sounding stressed or congested). I haven't played the 2x8 (maybe once, briefly, in a store?) and I know the cabs are popular here, but I haven't been super impressed with the Rumble cabs/combos I have tried (had to play a DB through the big combo on Friday and found it frustrating), though I'll grant that they're a significant improvement over previous generations. Take my opinion there with a grain of salt -- I don't have that much experience with them, and mine doesn't mean that you can't make them work well for you.

Re-reading your post, it doesn't sound like you're hitting the limits of the amp. You might try engaging the limiter and see if that makes things better or worse for you (I prefer it off, but curious to see what you think). You can also trying dialing in a boost around 50 or 60 Hz (or wherever sounds good in the mix) in place of the shelving bass control. Mids are your friend, yes, but it depends on the mix and where they are centered. If things are boomy/muddy, sometimes cutting a bit of low mids can help (boost and sweep to find the mud, then cut). Experiment similarly with the mids and upper mids -- sweep and listen for what's helpful, though you'll most likely be boosting here. If I had to guess, I'd say that ~700 Hz and ~1.5 kHz might be helpful frequencies, but it depends. Listen and see.

You should also try the Timbre control on the amp -- a tiny adjustment right or left of center can really tighten up or darken the sound. I find that tightening it up that way then adding some lows back in via EQ gives me a sound that still feels big but is more clear and articulate. I've used the Taste control on the Eich T900 (which operates in a similar way to the Timbre control on the TF) in the same way but, again, it depends on the mix and the room -- sometimes I've gone in the opposite (darker, looser) direction.

You can try elevating the cabs, putting them on some isolating material, moving them to a different part of the room. You can try a different amp (can you borrow one?). Might work better for you but I wouldn't assume the amp's the problem. You might also enlist the help of a friend with trusted ears to tweak while you play or, if you have a looper pedal, mess around with EQ while that plays.

Finally, if others in your band aren't sensibly EQed (if guitars or keys are stepping on your frequencies) that can contribute to boom and make your job harder. Not saying that's the case here, but sometimes it is.

Good luck! There's always some trial-and-error involved in processes like this.

 

[Bill Whitehurst]

My gut feeling is that with that much power, more speaker area is in order.
That and getting them closer to ear level.

 

[lomo]

...are you cutting mids and/or boosting lows.....if so this may be an eq issue......

 

[bobyoung53]

More speakers.

 

[Mushroo]

I think the 4x8" is your biggest problem. Go quality 8x10" with your Thunderfunk and you'll "cut through the mix" just fine, if that is indeed your sonic goal.

 

[MarkA]

I think 4x8 isn't a lot of speaker, but OP said he's too loud sometimes, already, with the amp not turned up much. Might be that more speaker would help, especially if he's pushing what he's got into compression -- and it would get things higher -- but it sounds like an EQ issue is possible, even likely.

The 750 should handle 2.7 Ohms if OP wants to add a third cab (assuming current cabs are 8 Ohms). Worth considering if he can get a sound he likes in the mix with either the Rumbles or the Aggies -- and if volume and dynamic headroom are really at issue.

 

[Downunderwonder]

If you are too loud but too quiet then everything else must be too loud.

 

[andruca]

First thing I usually do is check wether I'm occupying my space right (low mids/lows). For the kind of band I play with (mostly HC/metal) 4x8" wouldn't have the needed low en authority at the mandatory volume, might not be your case. And also check that nobody is getting too far into your range; check your guitars' low EQ, push them back into their zone if necessary (also eventually tie the keyboard guy's left hand).

Besides that, there's simply basses with some timbric (waveshape) magic that just cut thru'. I'm a real advocate for Musicman in that aspect, some "prrrrrrr" happening on them, not a sub low thing (even tho' the Musicman sound is definitely thick) but more about the lo-mids and mids. It's a very EQ and mix tolerant bass, you can deviate a lot from flat, whichever way, you can turn it down in the mix, and that "prrrrrr" is still there, making the bass distinguishable. That and the fact that playing anything other than MM sounds "under-the-blanket" is what keeps me hooked on them (for reference, I've owned Ps, Js, twin humbuckers, I own 3 P/Js too).

 

[Tommygun_ted]

I use a 100 watt V4B reissue through a 6x10 and I find it can be a bit too loud at times. I would say more speakers and play with your eq. I owned the fender 1200 and it was way too big for what we were doing

 

[muddycreek]

+1 on getting the speakers aimed at your ears. I'd probably stack vertically on the most stable chair/stool/box/etc. I could find. That's step one because its both free, and the only way you're going to hear what your rig is actually doing. If you're lucky, that'll be enough. If not, EQ is the next step, then maybe thinking about speaker area. 750 watts, unless that's head has some kind of real issue should never be insufficient!

 

[GreyBeard]

You definitely have enough power, you just don't have enough speaker area or XMAX moving the air.

 

[mesaplayer83]

Speakers and EQ, in that order - I doubt the amp is the issue... Also, the EQ of the guitars might be part of it...

 

[jaymelewis]

I think you need more speakers throwing more air - you'll never get the bigness and clarity at that volume with an ensemble.

 

[anton72]

More speaker area OR more efficient speakers (did I say Barefaced cabs?)

 

[Skybone]

I'd agree that you need to have a look at your EQ & play with it while the whole band are playing (get someone to do it for you?).

If that doesn't work, then have a look at cab options.

It could be a mix of both, but I'd play with the EQ before spending money.

Do you know any other bass players with different amp/cab setups? Ask nicely if you could borrow cabs (and/or amps) for rehearsals. It's worth experimenting with different settings and gear.

 

[MarkA]

I just dont see being too loud with the amp not being turned up much with four 8's...almost impossible...I have seen many 4x10 cabs at rehersal with less volume at the amp and its not "too loud".....guess it all boils down to each persons interpretation of loud..

I'm just going by what the OP said -- to be fair, he did say that he was "way too loud on the slow, soft songs" and that he was lacking definition on the more raucous stuff. I'm not there at his gigs or practices and I don't know how loudly his band plays. I think it's possible that he needs more speaker -- I'd guess that those two Rumble cabs would start to compress/complain before the head ran out of steam -- and likely that he's suffering from speaker placement and or EQ issues.