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"raking" when descending

#21
slybass3000 said:
If your are serious about playing bass you need to learn this technique. It is essential to pro bass playing. It give you speed,control,even sounding notes and no restriction on any parts. Try to play Jaco's compo "Teen town" without alternate fingers for a example,you won't pass the first bar. This help a lot when the rythm is even like regular 16th notes,but, when you you play syncopated rythms,anything goes.
SB
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I am serious about playing bass. I have a degree in music education and I've been teaching strings for several years. I attended music school for 6 years. This is why I am so puzzled by non-"raking" when descending adjacent strings. I'm not taking about using the index finger only (like Jamerson's "hook"). Also, I'm not taking about skipping over strings. I am talking about alternating the index and middle fingers and moving one string lower.

I gave a link to Bunny Brunel's video lesson because it shows how a finger leaves one string and goes to the next. If you plan on playing one note on the G string (with your middle), then one on the D string, you're middle is already touching the D string. It will have to move out of the way if you want to use the index to play the D string note.

The only exception I can think of is if your right hand is set up like a flamenco/classical guitarist. Here you would have your fingers arched and you would be using your thumb to play lower strings. OR, you have your thumb anchored/floating and your using your fingers in a flamenco/classical style.

Do you have a picture of your right hand playing? I'd be interested, from an educational point of view, to see how you're making this work. I am not debating, I am interested in seeing/understanding how this works for you; especially when playing fast. Back in college this type of discussion dominated pedagogy classes.

Thanks,
Joe
 
#22
slybass3000 said:
Try to play Jaco's compo "Teen town" without alternate fingers for a example,you won't pass the first bar.
Click to expand...

Sly,
You're right, but the opening bar of Teen Town has string skipping. I wouldn't rake two strings away. I would only rake one string lower. Here is a link to Teen Town for anyone interested in this amazing piece. I played the 1st 5 notes:
I, M, I, M, I (I = Index, M = Middle). A rake here would certainly slow you down.

http://www.lucaspickford.com/transteen.htm

Joe
 
#23
Here is an image that I created so I can more clearly understand how people are using their right hands. Sometimes in a forum it is difficult to visualize the way people are describing things. I've always heard that a picture is worth a thousand words.

I included the fingering so we know when a string is played open and when we are going to the next lower string. Also, I included my right hand fingering solution.

If you were to start these 5 notes using your right hand middle finger, how would you play the other 4 notes? Remember, I = Index, M = Middle.

Would it be:
1) M, I, I, M, I (rake from G to F#)
2) M, I, M, I, M (no rake, strict alternating)
 
#24
So raking is easier, you should practice alternating when you could be raking instead. Is that your testimony?

So for the left hand, you should avoid easy fingerings and try to find the hardest way to finger things with your left hand too then, right?

And for slapping, you should lift your thumb way up off the strings to avoid economy of motion as an exercise?

I think not. Its great to practice tough things as an exercise, but if economy of motion is what you should be striving for, and clearly I think that's the end result you want, you're just practicing bad habits by avoiding the most ecomonic solution. Just my 2c. Practice correctly, do it faster if you need more challenge.

Practice alternate fingerings on the left hand to develop dexterity, sure. Practice alternating on passages where it is appropriate, sure. Practice alternating where raking is appropriate? No.

Randy
 
#25
I am pretty much on the fence on this one Randy but I do want to give you a counterexample; not a perfect one but nevertheless interesting. When playing regular 8th or 16th notes guitarists playing with a pick will always alternate up and down strokes. Clearly, raking instead would be more economical and the really fast players, like Gambale, do use sweep picking. But generally sweep picking is not used for anything other than the crazy fast stuff. Why?

I think the answer is that alternating generally results in better and more consistent timing albeit at the expense of efficiency of motion.

Philip
 
#26
philiprst said:
I think the answer is that alternating generally results in better and more consistent timing albeit at the expense of efficiency of motion.

Philip
Click to expand...
That is exactly it! I know it might seems weird not to rake when it is easier to do so. But on the long run,learning NOT to skip will improve your sound and timing because I believe that raking doesn't give you total control about how you play your lines. I also want to mention that I do use 1 finger when I play a rock tune but for anything else I'll use the alternate fingers on a steady rythm.
SB
 
#27
Check out this website with Bunny Brunel. He has some simple exercises for right hand technique as well as video demonstrating it. If you don't know Bunny Brunel, he has played with Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Stanley Clarke, Frank Gambale, Tony MacAlpine, and many others.
Click to expand...

OUF! I just checked the link and I totally disagree with the way is showing how to use the right hand. If you listen closely in the exemple at the end where he plays a bass line in C, you can hear the difference between the attacks with the different fingers and he doesn't have the same sound in the line and it is more difficult to do the raking then to just alternate your fingers. There is no benefical advantage to this type of playing.
I know he's a well known player but this is totally OFF!
I wouldn't play like this on a session,they would throw me out.
SB
 
#28
Hi, first post in this forum though I've been in the DB forums for a month. Raking is a controversial subject, huh? Some of you rakers really hate to be told that you shouldn't rake. I won't say that you shouldn't rake ever, but it really does you no good as a player. There is a time and a place for raking...for example, if you're doing a Jamerson riff like "Reach Out (I'll Be There)," then it's probably OK to rake. But if you are doing a fast 16th note lick that lasts for a couple bars and you rake, you're never going to get it down. You're going to pull yourself out of time and rhythm with your fingers. Eliminating raking made a huge difference for the better in my playing, to the point where I won't even rake when playing Motown songs.

I took lessons off Dave LaRue for 3 years, and the very first thing he said to me was, "For all exercises, you will use strict alternation with your fingers. There will be no raking." After getting used to it, I was much improved when I tried to play fast stuff, and I was a lot more in the pocket for the funk stuff that I used to rake.

But hey, many of you don't want to give up the raking, and will try to justify sticking with it. Suits me. But if you're having any trouble improving your speed and feel, you might want to consider giving it up.
 
#30
JimmyM said:
I took lessons off Dave LaRue for 3 years, and the very first thing he said to me was, "For all exercises, you will use strict alternation with your fingers. There will be no raking." After getting used to it, I was much improved when I tried to play fast stuff, and I was a lot more in the pocket for the funk stuff that I used to rake.
Click to expand...

JimmyM,

Thank you so much for a thoughful response. I have given a lot of time, effort, and attention to this thread. Not only did you give your opinion, but you also gave a professional example (Dave LaRue). I will check out Dave's playing and his website. I am getting the impression that people think raking is easy. Any style of playing done well takes time and practice. I would not call it easy. Obviously, there are different schools of thought. It is my understanding that "raking" IS proper technique. Before today, I've never heard or seen a pro player teach strict alternation. I've never seen a pro bassist use strict alternation in a live setting. It is only now that I'm hearing of people using / endorsing / and defending this style of play. I have enjoyed this discussion a lot. I hope a lot of people read this thread and benefit from it. :)

Joe
 
#31
hey all,

this is a pretty heated debate! wow!

I hate to throw a skewed opinion into the mix, but I doubt I'd be me if I didn't.

I grew up on the playing of cats like Jamerson, Bogert, and Jones, so raking rhythmic tool was very much a part of my playing. when using ghost notes in particular you can get a great flam kind of sound, like drumsticks hitting a wet phone book.

then I started studying at BIT and cats like Paul Farnen and Alexis Sklarevski showed me what you can do with strict alternation of the fingers. for really quick 16th note patterns a la Jaco, Rocco, and Willis this way of playing can't be beat.

but... and here's where I'll probably start to rankle some... I still rake from time to time. when playing a slow blues or a walking jazz line I think it helps my rhythm and sounds more authentic. and has been pointed out by Joe, the fingers do fall naturally from one string to the next lower one.

when I am teaching I explain this to my students. I give them exercises for strict alternation but I try and demonstrate that there is a time for raking, too.

alright, you may return to your thread already in progress.

from the lows,

Stew
 
#32
Stewmc5222 said:
when I am teaching I explain this to my students. I give them exercises for strict alternation but I try and demonstrate that there is a time for raking, too.
Click to expand...
That is the correct answer for me, as well. I was classically trained at a very "technique-picky" school, initially everything had to be alternated, then slowly other techniques crept in. Bottom line for most of us, whatever feels good should be acceptable. Of course, if your playing is recorded and then heavily analyzed you may need to concentrate on the specifics.

For me, I really don't care how Rocco pumps out the groove, I'm still totally blown away by his rhythmic patterns. I'm not about to tell Rocco that raking is bad or good :rollno:
 
#34
But if you wanna play anything you want at any speed and control,then having a good control of your right hand is essential,IMO,
Click to expand...

I agree, and having good control of your right hand allows you to alternate, and also STOP alternating when it makes sense to rake... :D

Maybe I'm just an odd duck here, but playing trumped for 10 years before I started playing bass means my right hand fingers have always been wicked fast, my left hand can't keep up with my right hand.... and I've never had problems stuttering switching from raking to alternating, had to do weird patterns all the time with the right fingers playing trumpet. I don't even think about when I rake or when I alternate, its instinctual.

But just so I understand, raking is bad because of the differences in attack, tone, etc when descending the strings as opposed to alternating?

That must mean that "double thumb thumping" must be bad, cause of the differences in attack, tone, etc when the thumb is pulled up compared to the downward thumb thump. Right?

Good rules/principles should apply just as well to other similar situations, right???? :D

Randy
 
#36
slybass3000 said:
Here a very good exercice to practice the alternation of the fingers:
Play C on the E string on the VIII position with your second finger then play E on the G string a major tenth up with your third finger and play the descending C major scale like this and do a loop with this exercice.
This way, you're working mainly on the descending portion of a Major scale. Make sure you are alterneting your fingers accordanly. Look at it because your fretted hand is not moving so you can concentrate on your right hand. First play the exercice 1-2-1-2-1-2 etc. then do 2-1-2-1-2-1.
This will help!
SB
Click to expand...

Check this out, I wrote that earlier in this thread.
SB
 
#37
In a previous post I gave a link to Bunny Brunel and his right hand raking technique. To balance things off, here's a link to exercises for strict alternation:

http://www.warwickbass.com/basssurvival101/lesson_9fingers.htm

For the past couple of days I have been practicing some familiar scale patterns using strict alternation. It's different. I can see how it would really even out the attack on each note, but it seems as if it may fatigue the right hand more quickly. Perhaps that is just because it's a new exercise for my hand. I'm going to keep working on it just to see where it takes my playing. It couldn't hurt, right?

Thanks,
Joe
 
#38
I have always used a pretty much strict alternate finger technique. I tried to use raking when I saw Jaco explaining it on the Modern Bass DVD. I just couldn't get it down, and it's not like gave up after a few minutes, I practiced it for days. It just feels unnatural for me, but I was originally taught by this really traditional cat who heaps strict on alternate fingering. Old habits die hard!!
I even tried three finger technique as per Billy Sheehan, but with no luck!

I guesss use what ever works for you.
 
#39
You know, a lot of better bassists than us rake, and when I get as good as them I'll tell them about it, but a lot don't, too. It's up to you whether you rake...it's not like the audience will stop dancing or you won't get the record deal because you rake. What matters is the end result. If you feel your end result stands up to everyone else, then rake away. But if you find yourself getting pulled out of time when you rake, you may want to consider working at strict alternation.

The thing I like about it is that when you get to moving your fingers very fast for a fast 16th note passage, you develop a momentum with the alternation, which is completely train wrecked by a rake. All of a sudden your lead finger becomes your trailing finger, and unless you're really adept at leading with your trailing finger, which I'm not, you pull your right hand right out of the rhythm and force it to go back in right away to a rhythm it's uncomfortable with.

So don't all you rakers get mad when someone suggests strict alternation is the way to go. There's a reason behind it. And it's not like it will affect your life in a negative way if you rake and do it well.
 

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