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Rane PE 15 Para EQ: Shelving Option...When and Why?

Zooberwerx

Zooberwerx

Gold Supporting Member
Dec 21, 2002
23,315
28,109
68
Virginia Beach, VA
#1
All part of the learning curve...

I've installed a PE 15 in the main insert of our mixer although I've done no heavy experimentation. The settings are flat at the moment save for -6 dB attenuation @ 11 khz to minimize vocal "ring" (pre-feedback?). Bands #1 and #5 (20-300 hz, 1 khz-20 khz respectively) can be bypassed and utilized as shelving controls. Given the real world of live sound management, should I be giving added consideration to this option as opposed to feebly attempting to manipulate 5 para EQ bands? If so, what "corner" freq's would be most practical?

While I'm on the subject, can anyone suggest an inexpensive RTA / real time analyzer?

As always, thanks!

Riis
 
#2
Shelving EQ has wider effect on the signal than bell EQ. All frequencies below bass shelve are either boost or cut, as are highs above treble shelve (depending on your boost/cut setting). It´s not as pinpointed as a bell curve, and therefore better suited for "getting a sound" as opposed to diminishing problems and correcting inadequacies of the system. Since you´re using the EQ for controlling feedback, you´re better off sticking to bell EQ to get rid of the offending frequency-bands.

BTW, although possible, it´s highly unusual to have feedback at 11kHz... Most of it usually happens in the 200Hz-6kHz region. If 11kHz is the only offending frequency, consider yourself very lucky, as you have a system (and environment) that´s very flat in response...
 
#3
kalle74 said:
BTW, although possible, it´s highly unusual to have feedback at 11kHz... Most of it usually happens in the 200Hz-6kHz region. If 11kHz is the only offending frequency, consider yourself very lucky, as you have a system (and environment) that´s very flat in response...
Click to expand...

Its more of a ringing tone that trails vocals so I don't know if that's considered feedback or not. I was leaning towards shelving at 12 khz or so just to reduce the glassiness in the high end.

Riis
 
#4
if there's no other way of doing it, shelving the lowest band and using it to knock off everything below 40Hz or so is good for increasing headroom and saving low end amps and speakers.

i eventually retired my pe-15 in favor of a pe-17, which has 5 bands plus low and high-cut filters. i've long ago stopped using graphics for my front-of-house EQ in favor of parametrics, which just sound better and keep you from "mixing with your eyes", and the pe-17 was way worth the upgrade.
 
#5
walterw said:
if there's no other way of doing it, shelving the lowest band and using it to knock off everything below 40Hz or so is good for increasing headroom and saving low end amps and speakers.

i eventually retired my pe-15 in favor of a pe-17, which has 5 bands plus low and high-cut filters. i've long ago stopped using graphics for my front-of-house EQ in favor of parametrics, which just sound better and keep you from "mixing with your eyes", and the pe-17 was way worth the upgrade.
Click to expand...

Already doing 40 / 50 hz roll-offs with the crossover and power amps. As far as upgrades go, I'm leaning towards ditching the works and snagging a dbx Drive Rack.

BTW (and slightly off-topic), I see Dave's bass dept. was relocated to the main floor. Is this a permanent or temporary move?

Riis
 
#6
Zooberwerx said:
Already doing 40 / 50 hz roll-offs with the crossover and power amps. As far as upgrades go, I'm leaning towards ditching the works and snagging a dbx Drive Rack.

BTW (and slightly off-topic), I see Dave's bass dept. was relocated to the main floor. Is this a permanent or temporary move?

Riis
Click to expand...
oh hey, i keep forgetting how many of our peeps hang out here!

yeah, a driverack-type deal would be nice, as you could dial in your system with it to be "correct", with time-aligning, EQ, compression, low end roll-off, crossover slopes, the whole bit.

then you could keep the pe-15, and just use it to correct for room issues and feedback problems, probably only needing one or two bands at any given time.

(OT, everything has been moved to the "main" side of the store for the foreseeable future.)
 
#7
walterw said:
oh hey, i keep forgetting how many of our peeps hang out here!

yeah, a driverack-type deal would be nice, as you could dial in your system with it to be "correct", with time-aligning, EQ, compression, low end roll-off, crossover slopes, the whole bit.

then you could keep the pe-15, and just use it to correct for room issues and feedback problems, probably only needing one or two bands at any given time.

(OT, everything has been moved to the "main" side of the store for the foreseeable future.)
Click to expand...

I believe the DriveRack has both graphic and parametric EQ's. Don't know if they can be engaged simultaneously, though. Hmmm....better look at the online manual again!

Riis
 
#8
well, the idea is not to be tweaking the driverack during gigs, but just to dial in the system with it originally. you should have an EQ that you can grab a knob and move it on the fly.
 
#9
walterw said:
well, the idea is not to be tweaking the driverack during gigs, but just to dial in the system with it originally. you should have an EQ that you can grab a knob and move it on the fly.
Click to expand...

Well, I could leave it in the main insert (bypassed, of course) but, honestly, we've experienced no major feedback problems thus far. Should I assume the auto-EQ and auto-feedback suppression have their limitations?

There is something to be said for real honest-to-gosh knobs on any component.

Riis
 
#10
walterw said:
oh hey, i keep forgetting how many of our peeps hang out here!

yeah, a driverack-type deal would be nice, as you could dial in your system with it to be "correct", with time-aligning, EQ, compression, low end roll-off, crossover slopes, the whole bit.

then you could keep the pe-15, and just use it to correct for room issues and feedback problems, probably only needing one or two bands at any given time.

(OT, everything has been moved to the "main" side of the store for the foreseeable future.)
Click to expand...

If you decide to go with the DBX, I would highly recommend going with the 260. That and a laptop are really a good solution.
If the 260's too rich for you, I would then highly recommend the BBE 2X6 DSP unit. I have two of them and they are good sounding. Much better than the Behringer Speaker DSP unit.
I would stay away from the regular driverack. They are very cumbersome to work with. "I like computers". They also will produce a nasty pop if it happens to get turned off, or loses power. If you insist on the "driverack", get a little uniteruptable power supply (UPS). Factor that in to your final solution cost.
 
#12
The Drive Rack is a wonderfull tool that you will be able to use on countless occasion , your bass , your IEM , your studio , PA , etc...
Only save them as different presets and that's it....

Yes you can have the graphic and the parametric together , but IMO , a good parametric , with a "Q" , is what you only need.

On the 260s , the frequency on the para EQ is stepped by 1/10 of an octave (if I remember right)
Personaly , I never use those feedback eliminators.......
 
#13
fokof said:
The Drive Rack is a wonderfull tool that you will be able to use on countless occasion , your bass , your IEM , your studio , PA , etc...
Only save them as different presets and that's it....

Yes you can have the graphic and the parametric together , but IMO , a good parametric , with a "Q" , is what you only need.

On the 260s , the frequency on the para EQ is stepped by 1/10 of an octave (if I remember right)
Personaly , I never use those feedback eliminators.......
Click to expand...

This will be used solely for PA speaker management and replaces the Rane PE-15 (may leave in rack bypassed), dbx 166 compressor, BBE Sonic Maximizer, and dbx crossover.

If the adage "a little knowlege is a dangerous thing" holds true, I should be the poster child. I'm sure I'll have more questions as the project progresses.

Riis
 
#14
Even for tone shaping I don't care for shelving EQ, as the slopes are not steep enough. If I want to boost a little low end, a shelving EQ also gives me a bunch of extra 80-100-150-200 that I don't want. So my low mid control then gets used up to fix the problem that the shelving EQ caused.

This is one of the reasons for my Allen & Heath console preference - it still has a crappy shelving bass control, but the low mid sweeps down to 35, which allows me to get the low end bump I want. So long as I don't need any low mid fixes, I'm good. (I usually DO need low mid fixes ;-(

It's also the reason that the Roland M-400 is not a contender for "my" new console - the bass and treble EQ are shelving only - no bell option. Yamaha to the rescue.
 
#15
Zooberwerx said:
This will be used solely for PA speaker management and replaces the Rane PE-15 (may leave in rack bypassed), dbx 166 compressor, BBE Sonic Maximizer, and dbx crossover.

If the adage "a little knowlege is a dangerous thing" holds true, I should be the poster child. I'm sure I'll have more questions as the project progresses.

Riis
Click to expand...
the dbx compressor should stay in service as well; you shouldn't be running the entire mix through it, but rather using it to compress certain things, like vocals. the driverack's compression can't do that, as the driverack is after everything else.

the driverack will do multi-band compression, so you can do stuff like compressing the top boxes but not the subs, but that kind of thing is more about speaker and amp protection than "musical" compression.
 
#17
TimmyP said:
The Maximizer might be useful as a channel insert, but I'd never use one on the mix. Every time I've mixed on a system that had one, the rig sounded better with the unit removed from the signal chain.
Click to expand...
oh damn, we've got Link Removed people here (who thus actually know what they're talking about!)

the analogy i've learned is that BBE maximizers are like dumping salt on food. if the food is bland and yucky, salt makes it sort of palatable. if the meal is delicious and expertly prepared, putting salt on it ruins it.
 
#18
walterw said:
oh damn, we've got Link Removed people here (who thus actually know what they're talking about!)

the analogy i've learned is that BBE maximizers are like dumping salt on food. if the food is bland and yucky, salt makes it sort of palatable. if the meal is delicious and expertly prepared, putting salt on it ruins it.
Click to expand...

In the case of a Maximizer, the food is always pre-salted. Even Chinese Mackie 450s, and those Sonic cabinets with the orange surrounds, sound better without the Maximizer.
 

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