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Rarely discussed but influential: Greg Lake ELP live sound

coyote1

coyote1

Mar 23, 2012
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3,105
#1
First off, he was obviously a great guitarist, bassist, songwriter and collaborator. At the very forefront of prog, in the earliest incarnation of King Crimson, and of course at prog's pinnacle in the early 70s with Emerson Lake and Palmer.

Anyway, I don't recall seeing much about him here. So being that I'm currently (re)learning Tarkus and KarnEvel9 on keyboards, I remembered just how huge and textured and expansive was Lake's bass sound when playing live. So I decided to not try to emulate it precisely, but to just visit the concepts.

I think that he frequently utilized an envelope follower, in order to help fatten up the overall band sound. Set differently than the funk players; instead of having an immediate peak and then cutting out, it had a slower peak and slower decay. So on my Boss GT1B, I tried the touch wah. Not that useful. More useful is the synth function. It too is touch sensitive, but has better control over attack and decay. Added a bit of reverb… it's nowhere near perfect, but it gets the point across. Big, expansive, in the correct balance it adds that 'bwow' without dominating the sound. If I play it near the bridge it triggers consistently.

I'll work on that sound more at some point. But for now I'm off to go play it.
 
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#2
coyote1 said:
I think that he frequently utilized an envelope follower, in order to help fatten up the overall band sound. Set differently than the funk players; instead of having an immediate peak and then cutting out, it had a slower peak and slower decay.
Click to expand...

Can you point to any recordings where you hear ^^^that effect?
I'll admit I'm not the most diehard Greg Lake fan (love Crimson, hate ELP, listened to a lot of both when I was a teenager) but I can't think of anything off the top of my head that sounded like envelope-controlled filter on Lake's bass.
 
#3
Bob_Ross said:
Can you point to any recordings where you hear ^^^that effect?
I'll admit I'm not the most diehard Greg Lake fan (love Crimson, hate ELP, listened to a lot of both when I was a teenager) but I can't think of anything off the top of my head that sounded like envelope-controlled filter on Lake's bass.
Click to expand...
It's at the beginning of KarnEvel9 on the Welcome Back My Friends live recording. It's subtle, just enough to provide a hint. I could be wrong, it might be a characteristic of the bass itself and/or of his amplification.
 
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#4
Bob_Ross said:
Can you point to any recordings where you hear ^^^that effect?
I'll admit I'm not the most diehard Greg Lake fan (love Crimson, hate ELP, listened to a lot of both when I was a teenager) but I can't think of anything off the top of my head that sounded like envelope-controlled filter on Lake's bass.
Click to expand...
I was a huge Greg Lake / ELP fan at one point. I'm pretty familiar with ELP's recorded output up through Works Vol II, and I can't think of any tracks where he uses an envelope filter. There's a fuzz/wah somewhere In "Picture at an Exhibition" ("Hut of Baba Yaga?") and fuzz occasionally, but that's about it. Maybe you a hearing a place where he doubles Emerson's synth (like the ostinato in the beginning of "Tarkus"?
 
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#5
coyote1 said:
It's at the beginning of KarnEvel9 on the Welcome Back My Friends live recording. It's subtle, just enough to provide a hint. I could be wrong, it might be a characteristic of the bass itself and/or of his amplification.
Click to expand...
I hear that…I could be wrong but I am fairly certain he is doubling Emerson's left hand which is playing a synth. Some people hate on Lake's very bright tone, but I always thought that tone was his solution for cutting through the synth when he and Emerson were playing those unison lines.

And thanks for getting me to listen to ELP again!

Edit: forgot how much I dislike the mix on WBMFTTSTNE. So muddy and boomy!

2nd edit: I have a bunch of audience recordings from the Welcome Back My Friends tour in'74. Some of them sadly have much better low end than WBMFTTSTNE - much less boomy and mushy. You can clearly hear that Lake and Emerson are playing a unison bass line at the beginning of Karn Evil 9, 1st Impression. Pretty sure that's what you are hearing as an envelope filter.
 
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#6
s_wood said:
Some people hate on Lake's very bright tone,
Click to expand...
I loved it! I only saw ELP live once, at Winterland in SF (Mahavishnu Orchestra opened, but that's another story). Lake's jazz bass sounded amazing! So bright, clear, and in-your-face. I had no idea a jazz bass could sound like that and I became a jazz bass fan right at that point.
 
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#7
s_wood said:
I hear that…I could be wrong but I am fairly certain he is doubling Emerson's left hand which is playing a synth. Some people hate on Lake's very bright tone, but I always thought that tone was his solution for cutting through the synth when he and Emerson were playing those unison lines.

And thanks for getting me to listen to ELP again!

Edit: forgot how much I dislike the mix on WBMFTTSTNE. So muddy and boomy!

2nd edit: I have a bunch of audience recordings from the Welcome Back My Friends tour in'74. Some of them sadly have much better low end than WBMFTTSTNE - much less boomy and mushy. You can clearly hear that Lake and Emerson are playing a unison bass line at the beginning of Karn Evil 9, 1st Impression. Pretty sure that's what you are hearing as an envelope filter.
Click to expand...
His tone was always perfection, an ideal…bell clarity and piano sustain. I was never a Jazz Bass fan, grew up with a P and continue to use variants, but the Hiwatts(along with the Roto's) must be the secret sauce, as I get just as inspired by the sound of Leeds-era Entwistle, Wetton during Crimson, and grind of JJ Burnell in the early Stranglers. I saw ELP twice, before they turned into a circus act and I lost interest.
 
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#8
s_wood said:
I was a huge Greg Lake / ELP fan at one point. I'm pretty familiar with ELP's recorded output up through Works Vol II, and I can't think of any tracks where he uses an envelope filter. There's a fuzz/wah somewhere In "Picture at an Exhibition" ("Hut of Baba Yaga?") and fuzz occasionally, but that's about it. Maybe you a hearing a place where he doubles Emerson's synth (like the ostinato in the beginning of "Tarkus"?
Click to expand...
That keyboard ostinato is left hand on Hammond - the absolutely classic 3rd harmonic percussion, with a hint of distortion that makes the percussion stand out even more.

I had considered that I might be hearing doubled synth on KarnEvel9. But I guess it helped me to imagine playing it live with the bass doing that sound, as I'm not quite good enough on keys to do both LH and RH together on KE9. Tarkus is actually easier, as it relies largely on stacked fourths.
 
#10
coyote1 said:
It's at the beginning of KarnEvel9 on the Welcome Back My Friends live recording. It's subtle, just enough to provide a hint. I could be wrong, it might be a characteristic of the bass itself and/or of his amplification.
Click to expand...
That's Keith doubling the bass line with his Hammond organ. I grew up listening to prog rock, of course, including ELP. I highly doubt Greg Lake ever used an envelope filter.
 
#11
In a GP mag interview (Pre Bass Player, if memory serves) Lake said he's going for a bass sound akin to the bottom end of a Steinway. That is exactly what it sounds like on "Nutrocker".

He also stated that the only effect pedal he had used (at that time) was a non name fuzz.

I saw ELP in the late 90s (I think). Sadly, I can't remember what bass he played. He did play guitar on "Tarkus", so all the bass was Emerson on that. Same thing when they played "Karnevil 9 on TV - either Midnight Special or In Concert. Yup, I'm almost 70.

Side note: Back in the day, my guitar player friend mentioned how some of Lake's electric leads sound a lot like Emerson's synth. I had to go back and listen to verify that they were in fact, guitar parts.
 
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#13
They wwere all monster musicians. And playing bass between Keith and Carl was a job for a full grown man. It's such a shame they're gone.

After all the certainly well deserved acclaim for Neal Peart, it's painful that Carl Palmer is so overlooked.

I saw them in Houston when they were touring behind their new album, Brain Salad Surgery, with the Quadrophonic PA, Emerson stunt-flying over the audience on a big Steinway, Carl's spinning drum kit, and the giant Moog modular changing into a robot.
 
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#15
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Greg had several Alembics, probably best known for the Scarab-shape Eight. The bottom pic is him on a standard Series Two four. Alembic also made him Series guitars in 6 and 12-string.
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#19
Bob Coldwell said:
In a GP mag interview (Pre Bass Player, if memory serves) Lake said he's going for a bass sound akin to the bottom end of a Steinway. That is exactly what it sounds like on "Nutrocker".
Click to expand...

I work at a Steinway dealership...and while I have never heard this quote before, you are completely correct on this assessment.
J Wilson said:
They wwere all monster musicians. And playing bass between Keith and Carl was a job for a full grown man. It's such a shame they're gone.

After all the certainly well deserved acclaim for Neal Peart, it's painful that Carl Palmer is so overlooked.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming you mean the "band" is gone...because Carl's still playing the music as a legacy act (currently on tour it seems).

And I'm going to throw a shout out to Cozy Powell as well...that one album he did with them is unfairly slept-on, IMO
 
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