Double Bass Ray Brown's transition from gut to steel strings

[JBarz]

Happy Sunday -

Can anyone pinpoint the exact point in his discography that Ray Brown transitioned to steel strings?

I've been on an early Oscar Peterson listening binge for the past year and still haven't been able to nail it down...

Was he already steel (early adopter?) by the time he met OP, or did it happen circa '56?

Thanks!

 

[Eli Brockway]

I think from what people on the board have dug up before, it was around 59 when he started using steels, Lycons on the bottom and gut on top, and with some variance depending on the bass. At one point around 63 he had all steel strings on a French bass, kept the guts on top on his Italian. It was probably a few years later when he switched to all steels all the time.

 

[lurk]

A little off topic, but I'm old enough to have seen many of my heroes in person. I missed PC and OP, but I've seen Sam Jones, Ray Brown, Walter Booker, Mingus, Milt Hinton, George Duvivier, Percy Heath, Red Mitchell, and, of course, all the living legends. Except for Charlie Haden, every one of those guys who made themselves jazz stars playing gut had switched. Maybe they knew something? Also, I never saw any of them play without using a pickup and amp. Every one. Milt Hinton in duo at quiet and small Zinno? Pickup, and amp.

 

[james condino]

Early magnetic pickup technology.

'The same reason I use a Krivo pickup with Spiro mitts when I know it is going to be a loud gig and I want to be heard. Regardless of my acoustic love for raw gut strings, my desire to hear myself & be heard on the job with no feedback or amplified issues is more important.

 

[brianrost]

Maybe they knew something?

They figured out steel required less maintenance and wasn't affected by humidity as much? They probably thought they sounded better, too

 

[Sam Reese]

The attack of steels is addictive, and tonality.

 

[LouisF]

This is not my field, but ... I was talking with a stand partner at rehearsal yesterday. I have GDA guts on my 1810 bass (Spiro Weich E/C) and he said that when he transitioned from guts to steel (mid 1960s) his first strings were Lycons. It was only after Lycon had quality control issues that he (and other bassists) went to Spirocores.... for what it's worth.

 

[JBarz]

Wow, I was way off!

So that means 'We Get Requests" was full steel set for sure, but "Ben Webster meets OP" was probably still gut on top.

I am starting to think the whole 'gut vs steel' preference argument is on some level more about RH feel and how the player's hears themselves than it is about how it translates to the audience.

I've always been a gut guy to some degree, but as I mature as a player I am finding myself growing out of them for a number of reasons. It's nice to have a bass setup that way for slap-centric work (ugh...), but it's obnoxious to me how differently I have to approach them - almost like they're two different instruments.

Fascinating, though! Three guesses what I'm going to be listening to all day...

Thanks for your help as always, guys.

 

[bassfat]

I was fortunate to be in a very small Master Class group with John Clayton in Atlanta probably 15 years ago. A large part of it was just Q&A and he mentioned that Ray Brown would certainly have been trying different strings in this modern era. He also put an emphasis on how limited the choices had been for the iconic players that we all love. I had been on Spiro mediums for 10 years straight at that point as I had been advised as a beginner to buy Spiros for that Ray Brown sound.

 

[Bruce Calin]

An early teacher of mine said that it was mainly an economic issue for him but also the principal of the orchestra he played in went to steel(Spiros!) and pretty much decreed that the rest of the section would, too. In contrast, my principal in the Omaha Symphony a few years later wouldn't have played steel strings for any reason. He had the only gut long extention e-string I have ever seen to this day. This was in the mid-to-late sixties.

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

It's nice to have a bass setup that way for slap-centric work (ugh...), but it's obnoxious to me how differently I have to approach them - almost like they're two different instruments.

I had one of my basses set upwith gut strings for a while and this was my experience as well.

- Steve

 

[Sam Reese]

OK, so we have basses set up for slap and basses not set up for slap. To me, it's no different than my classical guitars with nylon strings and my other guitars with steel strings. It's a mind set. I enjoyed having one bass setup each way, but ultimately I need fast response so I have both basses with TI Spiros and low action...and Krivo pickups. YMMV.

 

[834federal]

Happy Sunday -

Can anyone pinpoint the exact point in his discography that Ray Brown transitioned to steel strings?

I've been on an early Oscar Peterson listening binge for the past year and still haven't been able to nail it down...

Was he already steel (early adopter?) by the time he met OP, or did it happen circa '56?

Thanks!

I have heard that "We Take Requests" was his first recording on Steel.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I remember some of the culture around gut strings back when there was no real alternative that was in common use. Rubbing a Brazil nut on the G and D to make them more slippery, burning off the little "whiskers' with a cigarette tip, and monitoring the weather to make sure the strings had not gotten too loose or tight due to temp or humidity changes were some. The perception that steel strings were louder was a reason some of the oldtimers I knew switched when steel became more available even though that may not have been true. The fact that steel took so much less time to stabilize was a big selling point. As a young player I got to see the transition from gut to steel more-or-less first hand. The way different players switched, or didn't, and the various reasons they had is still going on today, I guess.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Slight offshoot, but did orchestral players switch to steel around the same time?

 

[Bruce Calin]

Slight offshoot, but did orchestral players switch to steel around the same time?

We're talking ancient history, but my recollection of players I knew in both situations was the orchestra players were actually more receptive to switching as a rule. As I mentioned, if a principal changed over the section pretty much did,too. The jazz and commercial players were more hesitant as I recall. One issue was that the early solid-core steel strings would break at the bridge if you played a lot of pizz which was a real negative. When the "rope cores" came out, they were more accepted. Several of the jazzers went to gut G&D and steel A&E which is still pretty popular. On my Kay that's what I have. I think that by the mid-to-late 60's people had made their choices one way or the other. One thing I've seen in the last several years is trad players who use all gut with an unwrapped A string, which to me personally is pretty much unplayable but they love it. What is old is new.

 

[LouisF]

I've gone back to plain gut GDA (with a spiro Ext E/C). It started as a covid exercise while I was working on the Bach suites to stay sane. The bass never sounded so good. I've kept the set up as various community orchestras have restarted and, despite some initial stares, no one has complained(I'm principal in one so...) I just the Beethoven 9th with that set up and the Dvorak New World is coming up. Perhaps I would switch back to something gut-like (Jargars or Dominants) if I were in a professional situation but for me this is not only fine, but tone-wise very rewarding.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I've gone back to plain gut GDA (with a spiro Ext E/C). It started as a covid exercise while I was working on the Bach suites to stay sane. The bass never sounded so good. I've kept the set up as various community orchestras have restarted and, despite some initial stares, no one has complained(I'm principal in one so...) I just the Beethoven 9th with that set up and the Dvorak New World is coming up. Perhaps I would switch back to something gut-like (Jargars or Dominants) if I were in a professional situation but for me this is not only fine, but tone-wise very rewarding.

Hi, Louis,
How long did it take to get comfortable with the plain gut A? When I tried a bass with one it seemed as thick as a pencil and I couldn't get with it in the time I had. I mentioned that my principal in Omaha was a die-hard gut player and I still remember how great he sounded. It sounds like you're having a good experience with them.

 

[LouisF]

The gut A is extremely temperamental and sometimes frustrating. I think I tried 3 different wound As but none of them had the cajones of the plain A when it's in the mood. Seems worth the effort by and large... and it is fun. The other thing about playing guts is that it really has made me a better player - the nuances of intonation and bowing (not that I can master either of them) are clearer with guts IMO.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I still remember 52+ years later the effect on me of my Omaha principal playing the low Db in "Mathis der Mahler" on his great Italian bass with his gut long- E string playing that note. I almost fell on the floor. I had never heard or felt anything like it.