Ray Ross Bridges

[Roland GR 88]

I've read all the posts within these threads and we've asked Ray Ross repeatedly to defend his design, explain his patents and refute the criticisms heaped upon his attempts to offer something new and different to the market.
I think he's been an absolute saint, all things considered.....
It's people like Ned Steinberger, Ken Parker, Larry Fishman, Floyd Rose and Ikutaro Kakehashi that drive progress with their imagination and determination.
Regardless of the product, its stated claims or cost we should judge it on its performance and nothing else. Speculation and conjecture mean squat without the experience of real world use and abuse.
For those that think old Ray is pulling a fast one on us, go buy one and back up your claims. I'd guess that most of you would like to be proven right and see it fail but would line up around the block for one if caught on.

 

[TheRayRoss]

Ive given up on expecting bridges to have some big impact on tone. The whole hi-mass bridge thing is hype in my experience, i went down the Badass rabbit hole when they first came out. As long as it can be easily and finely adjusted, thats good enough for me and most players. I have yet to see anything that surpassed the simplicity and tuning stability of the original Steinberger double ball system, which eliminates the whole tuner post and string path mess: micrometer screw, straight line pull, no twist. I get that not everyone can find the guages they like in double ball, but its hard to argue with the design itself. I will say the bass in the video fitted with Ross bridge sounds good and looks good, which is true of a lot of competing designs. If there are intonatiin issues, i cant here them in the video, and since every bass with standard fret locations (vs True Temper) is a compromise on intonation anyway, the effect of string windings might be moot or OCD navel gazing at worst. Ive driven myself nuts with a Petersen strobe tuner trying to get "perfect" intonation. Now I just tune the A to 440 and do the rest by ear. The challenge for the designer is to demonstrate that this particular bridge is so superior to what came from the factory with my bass, that i should shell out the money to replace something that probably works fine to begin with. Tough sell! TB is a tough crowd, if you make bold claims, people will demand bold proof, and it can get prickly. The inventor should welcome scepticism, it will hone his sales pitch and might actually result in improvements or demonstrable proof that it’s superior to other bridges. Getting pissed off is counterproductive, if you believe in the product, don’t argue, sell us! Its all speculation until somebody other than the inventor or a couple players on a Japanese video who say its great, actually see, adjust, and play one.

I agree with the whole "high mass" thing. I boldly proclaim that tone does not come from mass, it comes from um-impeded vibrations AND more specifically YOU. Example: i have a guitar player friend who has bought a dozen different signature model amps in recent years. Petrucci- guess what?- he doesnt sound like him.
He bought evh, guess what? He doesnt sound like him either. He sounds like BRAD! its not the gear, its you! A good piece of gear should do nothing other than inspire you to try new things, in new ways, with new sounds you have not heard til now. My favorite part of the ok bass video i posted, he states that he is INSPIRED to play differently than he ever has! He loved it so much he put one on his personal bass and is now a rabid fan. Again, for me, mission accomplished.

 

[TheRayRoss]

I've read all the posts within these threads and we've asked Ray Ross repeatedly to defend his design, explain his patents and refute the criticisms heaped upon his attempts to offer something new and different to the market.
I think he's been an absolute saint, all things considered.....
It's people like Ned Steinberger, Ken Parker, Larry Fishman, Floyd Rose and Ikutaro Kakehashi that drive progress with their imagination and determination.
Regardless of the product, its stated claims or cost we should judge it on its performance and nothing else. Speculation and conjecture mean squat without the experience of real world use and abuse.
For those that think old Ray is pulling a fast one on us, go buy one and back up your claims. I'd guess that most of you would like to be proven right and see it fail but would line up around the block for one if caught on.

Man, that is a spectacular post! Me thinks one of the best. If i may... This craft is all about the ear, what does it SOUND like? Reading words will only take you so far as it pertains to music. Example: guy walks into a music store, trys every amp in the place, sales guy says "what do you think?" Dude says "i need to go home and read more reviews"... The guy totally missed the whole point, not only that but he fails to use the one thing that mattered.. His ears.

 

[Vinny_G]

Ya but what if you're on a mousetrap forum and Pete from Pete's Quality Mousetrap Emporium is there promoting his new, unusually designed, potentially problematic mousetrap and he's being kinda condescending and unprofessional? Might turn you off from his products.

Thank you for finding the name of my next band, I can already imagine the fantastic album covers
Are mousetrap forums really a thing?

 

[ixlramp]

The problem I have with that is that, because of the uneven mass distribution, any compensation you will do to correct intonation problems at the high end will be at the expense of intonation lower down.
[...]
And BTW I have the same problem with taperwound strings, and especially with exposed core strings.

If the mass per unit length of the end section is greater then the mass per unit length of the normal section, then as the sounding length decreases on higher frets its mass per metre increases, leading to a flattening of intonation. Adjust to true at the higher frets and the lower frets go out.

For a normal string, playing towards higher frets, stiffness rises, increasing pitch. Also, stretching due to larger distance to fret increases, raising pitch.
These are changes to pitch that steadily increase up the neck.
Offsetting a saddle introduces a flattening of pitch that steadily increases up the neck, which compensates for the above.

With a taperwound string or a Ray Ross bridge, there is an altered mass and altered stiffness at one end, both these alterations affect pitch.
Playing towards higher frets, the pitch changing effect of the altered end also steadily increases as it becomes a larger proportion of the length. Therefore, saddle offset can very probably compensate for it.

We know this already because we know that taperwound strings (for all strings in a set) can be intonated reasonably well, otherwise such sets would not sell. (The slightly inharmonic tone is a separate issue).
Custom strings for tappers (Warr Guitars, Touch Guitars) are usually contact-core for all strings in a set. These companies are not sloppy and would not accept a non-intonatable string.
I have managed to intonate a taperwound .145 up to the highest fret, it intonated better than a non-taperwound B string.

////////////////////////////

Anyway, as mentioned before, the change in mass and stiffness near the end caused by the Ray Ross design is no more extreme than the change in mass and stiffness caused by a taperwound string.
So, this 'issue' with the Ray Ross bridge is no more controversial than a taperwound string set. Some will like it and consider the benefits worth any very slight intonation or inharmonicity issue.

 

[Turnaround]

Also, stretching due to larger distance to fret increases, raising pitch.

Stretching also increases as you approach the nut. That's easily demonstrable when the nut slots are too high, driving the notes sharp at the first fret.

Playing towards higher frets, the pitch changing effect of the altered end also steadily increases as it becomes a larger proportion of the length. Therefore, saddle offset can very probably compensate for it.

But the compensation for the higher frets will be at the expense of intonation on the lower frets.

Anyway, as mentioned before, the change in mass and stiffness near the end caused by the Ray Ross design is no more extreme than the change in mass and stiffness caused by a taperwound string.

Except that the extra windings at the bridge add even more stiffness into the equation, where the taperwounds reduce the stiffness in this region.

It's all a matter of compromise. Perhaps the compromise introduced by taperwound strings is acceptable to a player because of a percieved improvement in tone, and perhaps the compromise introduced by the Ray Ross bridge is also acceptable to a player. But at least the player should be aware of the compromises he is making.

 

[Joshua]

On topic, please.

 

[Auspex]

Just got one today in black.

the design and packaging looks slick. Will be working with a tech friend tomorrow to assist in the install. I play in drop B and C on a 4 string fender with humbuckers into an SVT VR/810 Heritage. Lots of big and dumb opens and riffs high up the neck.

Biggest considerations were the expectation of increased sustain and clarity, as well as ease of setup and intonation.

looking forward to it !

$170 to my door in 3 days. Maybe odd remark but website/ordering/tracking process was super modern. Simple and informative.

 

[lifer_]

Just got one today in black.

the design and packaging looks slick. Will be working with a tech friend tomorrow to assist in the install. I play in drop B and C on a 4 string fender with humbuckers into an SVT VR/810 Heritage. Lots of big and dumb opens and riffs high up the neck.

Biggest considerations were the expectation of increased sustain and clarity, as well as ease of setup and intonation.

looking forward to it !

$170 to my door in 3 days. Maybe odd remark but website/ordering/tracking process was super modern. Simple and informative.

I’m very interested to hear your opinion after trying it.

 

[Matt Liebenau]

Yes, I’m interested in a real world experience also. I used to live in the Boise/Nampa area, may I ask who is installing it for you?

 

[TheRayRoss]

Just got one today in black.

the design and packaging looks slick. Will be working with a tech friend tomorrow to assist in the install. I play in drop B and C on a 4 string fender with humbuckers into an SVT VR/810 Heritage. Lots of big and dumb opens and riffs high up the neck.

Biggest considerations were the expectation of increased sustain and clarity, as well as ease of setup and intonation.

looking forward to it !

$170 to my door in 3 days. Maybe odd remark but website/ordering/tracking process was super modern. Simple and informative.

Nice to hear, and yes please do keep us informed
. i have never heard of "drop b and c" (call me a shut in). So, is your tuning e,a,b,c?
Bear in mind that although i am the creator, and have done a few conversions, it is literally a 10 minute deal. Especially on a 4 string. The five string takes about 25 minutes start to finish (usually requires new holes)

 

[maturanesa]

It seems it would be hard to set a low action with that design.

 

[Gorn]

I'd be hesitant to take advice from a bass bridge builder who doesn't know what drop tuning is. I hope the buyer still gets his tech friend to help out.

 

[TheRayRoss]

The lowest setting is slammed to the fretboard..so no

 

[TheRayRoss]

Well, at least you are done telling us all that it doesnt work! I would call that progress.

I'd be hesitant to take advice from a bass bridge builder who doesn't know what drop tuning is. I hope the buyer still gets his tech friend to help out.[/Q

 

[Gorn]

Well, at least you are done telling us all that it doesnt work! I would call that progress.

I've expressed skepticism regarding the design. Show me where I said it doesn't work. In the mean time, have you learned what drop tuning is? Maybe a potential customer would be interested in your product if it suited his drop tuning needs.

 

[bbh]

This is a discussion board. We discuss things here, in a balanced and respectful way.

Let's all remember that the moderators have to decipher tone via the written word. No easy task, let me assure you. I will always err on the side of caution in regards to rule #1, that of respect.

I agree and fine these never ending back and forth complaints frustrating. At the same time I realize it’s usually a simple lack of communication. So I need to lighten up just reading through it.

 

[bbh]

The problem I have with that is that, because of the uneven mass distribution, any compensation you will do to correct intonation problems at the high end will be at the expense of intonation lower down. Why add another area of compromise? But I think we say the same thing. It's just a question of how much compromise you are willing to make for what benefit.

And BTW I have the same problem with taperwound strings, and especially with exposed core strings. They introduce a level of compromise beyond what I find acceptable for the claimed benefits. Others may be more willing to accept the compromise.

I am totally confused. Are you saying there will be no correct intonation point, many points per string or something else. Please simplify for my chemo laddened brain which is on partial vacation.

 

[TheRayRoss]

I am totally confused. Are you saying there will be no correct intonation point, many points per string or something else. Please simplify for my chemo laddened brain which is on partial vacation.

I will take this one, with simple terms:
I dont even know what that guy is talking about...
The ball end of the string in my hardware IS the intonation point. A saddle is not necessary for proper intonation. I have proven this conclusively. (Even though some folks cannot wrap their brilliant minds around the concept). All that is required to intonate are as follows: an origin (ball end)
A termination (nut) and a scale. I.e. the length of your instrument. While there is no such thing as "perfect intonation", (it is mathematically impossible) almost any bridge is capable of getting close enough. Even mine.

 

[bbh]

I will take this one, with simple terms:
I dont even know what that guy is talking about...i think some folks just like to use big words un necessarily in order to sound brilliant. The ball end of the string in my hardware IS the intonation point. A saddle is not necessary for proper intonation. I have proven this conclusively. (Even though some folks cannot wrap their brilliant minds around the concept). All that is required to intonate are as follows: an origin (ball end)
A termination (nut) and a scale. I.e. the length of your instrument. While there is no such thing as "perfect intonation", (it is mathematically impossible) almost any bridge is capable of getting close enough. Even mine.

Unfortunately for me, I had to read this 5 times. Chemo just makes me dumb as a rock. I’m pretty sure I understand. With this explanation, I only understand some of the complaints which seem like non-issues. However we are dealing with Abby normal on my end...
Thank you