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Recording session problems

A

ACalbass

Dec 16, 2011
303
7
#1
I want to present an scenario expecting you guys input to find a resolution,or guidelines/suggestion about how to proceed.

We are going through recording sessions to get some material professionally done.
In the course of laying down tracks for vocals,there was the opinion of the producer (the head of the studio is a guy with some history and accredited track record,a valuable opinion for all members of the band) that some backing vocals are not fitting a certain part.

This vocals are done by the sax player,a guy that beside playing very well,knows a lot about music and can sing as well.

So,this part goes by,but got interrupted at the first attempt because of the producer's opinion.
The original sax player idea was never laid down properly,never had a chance to finish,so, in short,there was a consensus that the part should be worked on and changed.

I guess it was only me that saw how pissed off the sax player was because of the actions taken.
And I tried to explain the other band members that even though the part might fit or not,it was done done exactly like that in rehearsals and live,and nobody noticed any problems before,only after someone that was not in the band,nor know what our band is about and what the idea of the song is,mention that the background vocals are wrong or he doesn't like it.

Musically speaking,the vocals are correct,this I have no doubt,the correct notes,is following the lead vocals and no matter how you slice it,it has a musical foundation.

We had some argument over this,that lead us to make some future rules about the behavior of the whole band when faced with situations like this.

I proposed that no matter what,the player must finish his recording,in the way he thought it was right,the way it has always been played, the way he worked on the song,then after all recording is finished,sit down and listen well and decide what do to.
Of course in the context where it is musically sound,well played,and with the right attitude.
And is understandable if after all the part doesn't work just because,it happens : some things just doesn't work.

There was another part of this song where my bass line was not supporting a part or sounding the same as we do in rehearsals or live,so,I decided the guitar should back up the notes using power chords,it was done (not without problems with the guitar player,that eventually couldn't do it,someone else had to play for him) and recorded.
Big argument again about changing the song,the notes,uffffff,a big deal.
Anyway,at least,it was recorded,and now if the guys want to remove it,they are free to do so,at least I tried to present an option,is there if we need to use it.

Unlike the backing vocals.
We have no open options but to find new ways to do that part,part that I believe other member of the band will work on it and will come to us with something that is exactly the same as the sax player did (I do not believe it can be done differently,my view,but who knows).

I wonder if the irony of it all is that band members will learn to respect more their band mates work and prevail over the opinion of someone that only know the existence band 20 hours ago.
I really suffer when a player is not respected,when his work,unless is wrong,is interrupted and have not given the chance to finish what he tries to play.

But again,I by no means am an expert on handling this,asking other forum members that might have had similar experiences for opinions and maybe different point of views.
If i couldn't explain the situation well,feel free to ask and I'll do my best to clarify.
Thanks in advance
 
#2
Do all of the band members like the vocal part?

Yes? Record it and keep it

Unless you guys are recording for a major label, the producers opinion is just that. You can listen to what he has to say, but it's ultimately up to the band as to what gets laid down and kept on the final recording.

No? Ditch it.

A player can't get all bent out of shape because a part of theirs just doesn't sound good. It happens all the time. You just move on. I can certainly understand them being upset if they really liked it, but it's the bands album.
 
#3
The logical thing that I've always done is to put down the original idea, then after listening to the rough mixes, try new ideas. This only works if you have a suitable budget.

The guys should consider everything, but there's a certain amount of experience involved in knowing when to move on. The goal is to have the best sounding material possible. Therefore, you should consider the guy overseeing the studio possibly knows more, but you guys are paying for it. Ultimately, the final decision is yours...

I do believe that the sax player has to be careful about being too precious about the direction of the tracks. In the studio, it's business.... never personal... That "artiste" stuff tends to get in the way of what's best for the song. If the band is a dictatorship, then he can do what he wants... But you did say "band" didn't you?

The studio is about time management, a good musician doesn't always transfer into a good studio/time management/political/player..

If you guys have goals then discuss them and if the project is supposed to enhance them, cool... but as someone who has played on a lot of records until recently, I always looked out for amateurs that were cool at rehearsal, but as soon as they got in a studio, acted as though they'd made it. They were a either too relaxed or too high strung..

Enjoy the studio, but remember, it's time management.. IMO..

Good luck!

D.
 
#4
ACalbass said:
I want to present an scenario expecting you guys input to find a resolution,or guidelines/suggestion about how to proceed.

We are going through recording sessions to get some material professionally done.
In the course of laying down tracks for vocals,there was the opinion of the producer (the head of the studio is a guy with some history and accredited track record,a valuable opinion for all members of the band) that some backing vocals are not fitting a certain part.

This vocals are done by the sax player,a guy that beside playing very well,knows a lot about music and can sing as well.

So,this part goes by,but got interrupted at the first attempt because of the producer's opinion.
The original sax player idea was never laid down properly,never had a chance to finish,so, in short,there was a consensus that the part should be worked on and changed.

I guess it was only me that saw how pissed off the sax player was because of the actions taken.
And I tried to explain the other band members that even though the part might fit or not,it was done done exactly like that in rehearsals and live,and nobody noticed any problems before,only after someone that was not in the band,nor know what our band is about and what the idea of the song is,mention that the background vocals are wrong or he doesn't like it.

Musically speaking,the vocals are correct,this I have no doubt,the correct notes,is following the lead vocals and no matter how you slice it,it has a musical foundation.

We had some argument over this,that lead us to make some future rules about the behavior of the whole band when faced with situations like this.

I proposed that no matter what,the player must finish his recording,in the way he thought it was right,the way it has always been played, the way he worked on the song,then after all recording is finished,sit down and listen well and decide what do to.
Of course in the context where it is musically sound,well played,and with the right attitude.
And is understandable if after all the part doesn't work just because,it happens : some things just doesn't work.

There was another part of this song where my bass line was not supporting a part or sounding the same as we do in rehearsals or live,so,I decided the guitar should back up the notes using power chords,it was done (not without problems with the guitar player,that eventually couldn't do it,someone else had to play for him) and recorded.
Big argument again about changing the song,the notes,uffffff,a big deal.
Anyway,at least,it was recorded,and now if the guys want to remove it,they are free to do so,at least I tried to present an option,is there if we need to use it.

Unlike the backing vocals.
We have no open options but to find new ways to do that part,part that I believe other member of the band will work on it and will come to us with something that is exactly the same as the sax player did (I do not believe it can be done differently,my view,but who knows).

I wonder if the irony of it all is that band members will learn to respect more their band mates work and prevail over the opinion of someone that only know the existence band 20 hours ago.
I really suffer when a player is not respected,when his work,unless is wrong,is interrupted and have not given the chance to finish what he tries to play.

But again,I by no means am an expert on handling this,asking other forum members that might have had similar experiences for opinions and maybe different point of views.
If i couldn't explain the situation well,feel free to ask and I'll do my best to clarify.
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...

First-the studio guy, regardless of his own profile should be experienced and mature enough to keep his ego in check and go about advising in a way that does not interrupt, but help the process.
If you all as a band liked the vocal part you should have told him that and recorded them as you had initially intended.
If then you find they don't work, just change them.
It's your project, right?
I am guessing that you now spent more time in the studio than you would otherwise have.
Good for the studio guy's pocket but not so good for you, the client.
As to the guitar part; I'd have the guitarist try find one that does the job you had in mind for it.
That way he wouldn't have been 'over stretched'. Stretching is good, and important but over stretching can be very demoralizing.
 
#5
Recording is an interesting process in that it is often revealed that things everyone thought worked out well in a live situation don't work well in reality.
Back-up vocals are probably one of the easiest things to do poorly because most people tend to over do it (second are guitar solo's).
The most important thing that I have learned about recording is the old saying, "Less is more". Also, "Time is Money".
If you have the time and money go ahead and record all the parts everyone wants in an effort to make them happy but be ready and willing to edit them out during the final mix if they don't work.
I sing back-up and harmony vocals on all of our recordings and I often find that we end up with about 50% fewer parts in a song than I was originally thinking would work.
LESS IS MORE!
 
#6
Remember, he is just a guy who loves music that has an opinion. He is not an oracle, nor a king. Listen to your own ears and when you disagree with him listen closer, but always go with what your ears tell you, not his. You are the artist, not him.

...Unless of course he is Bruce Dickinson. If *THE* Bruce Dickinson tells you he needs more cowbell, you give him more cowbell.
 
#9
Liam Wald said:
Would this be the same advice that you would give to a major league pitcher in dealing with the coach or team manager?
Click to expand...

No. Because sports are competition based, like war. And in war, it is always best to trust your generals for the sake of the whole team.

As an art, music is a creative expression of the individual (or band in this case) It is not meant to be a competition or a thing to be won. Even if you were taking art lessons from Leonardo Da Vinci himself, there would be a point where your hand could become more an extension of his mind rather than your own.

In such a case, the art produced might become quite renowned and you could be credited as a genius. But you would also be an unintentional plagiarist.

Worse still, you could be every bit the genius of your teacher, but unless you have your own creative freedom to do your own thing, you genius may never be known.
 
#10
Nev375 said:
No. Because sports are competition based, like war. And in war, it is always best to trust your generals for the sake of the whole team.

As an art, music is a creative expression of the individual (or band in this case) It is not meant to be a competition or a thing to be won. Even if you were taking art lessons from Leonardo Da Vinci himself, there would be a point where your hand could become more an extension of his mind rather than your own.

In such a case, the art produced might become quite renowned and you could be credited as a genius. But you would also be an unintentional plagiarist.

Worse still, you could be every bit the genius of your teacher, but unless you have your own creative freedom to do your own thing, you genius may never be known.
Click to expand...

I understand your point and it certainly makes good sense on a lot of levels.
I believe that there is and has always been competition in the music business.
We compete for gigs, record deals, record sales, recognition, notoriety, endorsements, etc, etc.
For those few who truly are not competing, and I agree that there are a few, it doesn't matter what the end result/product is as long as THEY like it.
 
#11
There are so many complicated factors here, both musically and emotionally. OP, I applaud your attempt to make sure that, going forward, your band has an effective way to handle this type of situation.

Assuming you guys aren't completely strapped for time/money in the studio, there is absolutely no reason why you wouldn't take a bit of time to let your sax player take a shot at getting his part down the way he envisioned it. Listening back and talking about it as a team is really the only way for your band to make sure you're all happy with the results.

Remember, at the end of the day the producer works for you. Not only that, but your band is recording for its own sake, not the producer's. He will be giving you valuable feedback throughout the process, but you need to make sure that it resonates with your own vision so you can make music you're ALL proud of!
 
#12
If there is something on a recording that you don't like it is absolutely 100% worth spending the time and money to get it right.
If you don't it will bother you for the rest of your life.
You will always hear it and it will never get better.
There have been a couple of times that I have let something go by that I should have taken the time to fix and those little things drive me crazy whenever I hear them.
 
#17
Why have a producer at all? Just hire someone to run the board for you. Then you have it exactly the way you want it. That way there is no objective ear with an outside perspective. After all, you are making music for just yourselves, right? A bit overboard on my point, but we can be too sensitive and possessive when it comes to things we have created. I truly believe the produce is not thinking, "How can I make this song worse?"
 
#19
Liam Wald said:
I understand your point and it certainly makes good sense on a lot of levels.
I believe that there is and has always been competition in the music business.
We compete for gigs, record deals, record sales, recognition, notoriety, endorsements, etc, etc.
For those few who truly are not competing, and I agree that there are a few, it doesn't matter what the end result/product is as long as THEY like it.
Click to expand...

From my philosophy and perspective, business is an inherently evil thing. It puts money at the center of attention and forces a competition between all participating parties to act for the gain of it. I've never once heard anyone say thank god for all the glory that is the music business. It's always about how messed up the music business is and how badly people are getting screwed from every angle.

But this is the reality we live in. You are correct, the studio and the gigs and the sales are all business and an artist is smart to learn how to navigate it all and base some decisions for the sake of money. Most of us cannot afford to be in a studio laying dozens of tracks of instruments and then spending months figuring out how to select only the best of it and mix it into wonderful layers of sound.

Everyone wants to be creative, including people with suits and briefcases and they will pay a high price for the opportunity, just remember to sell your art, not your artistry.
 
#20
Oh,guys,thanks for all replies,all of them make sense to a degree.
Let's break it down

""Do all of the band members like the vocal part?""

No,band members didn't have anything to say until the opinion was brought up.
In my view,the opinion came TOO SOON,thus interrupting the recording.
Also,jumping into the same opinion bandwagon,when you never had any problems with the part in rehearsals and on stage tells me people is paying little attention to what the band members are playing,or have little understanding of it.

Studio work is always a microscopic view of you and your band mates playing abilities and contribution.
It does bring things to surface that otherwise would be forever hidden.
The point of my question goes toward the behavior of your band mates when things like that arise.
I appreciate all musicians ideas to be delivered,I think only then one could start filtering the things that work from the ones that don't.

I understand it the same as some of you,the producer is there to advice,more than to "direct" ,which only someone that spent some time learning and understanding what has been written or played could do.
In any case,I do not see a fault in the advice,but in the band mates reaction,by suppressing the idea at once without giving the benefit of the doubt to the player.
In any case,I also find the part not benefiting the music,creating some weird sensation at listening.
I am confident it can be worked on and a solution can be found,because musically,everything that makes sense and is well played can be made to work.

I am a little frustrated because someone worked out the part for an amount of time and has not been given a chance to express it in the way he wanted.


leonche64
""Why have a producer at all?""
Because you can't dismiss talent.
If you do not consider that some producers know their stuff,and can make a difference between a lousy recording and a brilliant one,then you just do not know how things work in music.
I assume you have never met one.
You want your band to succeed by not paying attention to people that can put you in the right track,then ask yourself WHY producers exist at all in this business.
There have to be good reasons you can find on your own to answer that question.
I have found producers that didn't know how to play any instrument,nor a single note name ,but they had very clear insight about sound and how and when should be delivered.
The producer is not the center of this rant,for us it is clear he knows because he suggested to correct other parts and was right,not only once.

Many of the replies are reinforcing my thoughts about letting the musicians play first,get the ideas out the way they wanted,then later sit and listen.
It should be a team effort to filter out the crap and preserve or even make the things that work better.
I think we missed it this time,and wish to make it better for the next.
All replies are appreciated and noted.
 

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