Recordings/demos/approach

[Eric_71]

So the band I joined in February is an original pop/rock band with a drummer, guitarist, bassist (me), and singer -- 4 people. They had a few songs written when I joined and we have tried to get some recording done over the past month or so. The issue we have run into is that recording is kind of expensive and time-consuming if you're going to do it at an actual recording studio, which we are. So we end up recording, someone doesn't like the way it turns out, we re-record, spend more time mixing it, get more feedback, etc. This is all done over separate sessions, and it just feels like we are chasing our tail and probably not prepared for what recording entails, both in terms of preparation and cost.

So here's my question: what's the right approach for a band that just got off the ground in February? Should we be trying to get professional recordings that are album-ready (my guess is no)? If not, what's the best way to get some acceptable demos to give to people? I would take a stab at home recording, but recording drums is kind of daunting to me. Is something like a Zoom R16 or some other mini recording thing a good idea? I have a Zoom H2, but we have never really tried in earnest to get good room recordings. Instead it has just been something to record ideas so that we don't forget them.

Here's the non-final mix of the one song we have from the studio so far:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/khf6fgpkup11x9t/Give and Take.mp3

We recorded this an 4 others earlier on, but then we scrapped those and did a separate session to kick this one out and get a final version. It's frustrating because it feels like we are constantly taking 2 steps back for every 3 we take forward.

Just looking for some input to get us on the right path. I think we have reasonable material and things are going well otherwise, so I want to focus our energies appropriately.

 

[nojj]

IMO it is useless and a needless expense to record before things are actually ready to go.
Had a few of those show up here at Cornerpocket, and usually send 'em home, and say come back when they're ready.

One option that works great for my bands is to do a one-pass recording on a stand-alone CDR with a single mic in the 'sweet spot', burn copies for all the guys, and send them home, have them listen, and see what needs to be changed/replaced/scrapped.
Lather, rinse and repeat as needed.
Really cuts down on the honing process.

If you have a nice-sounding room, and the guys know how to play at reasonable levels, one can get a reasonable recording out of it.
I've heard worse multi-track recordings than some of the one passes.

 

[bassbully]

Just get a good solid demo together but don't over think it. All of the originals bands I have been in did it for pretty cheap at a professional studio. Just make sure you do say 3 songs and have a tight budget.

If this goes well you can pool money to do a better release down the road.

 

[Eric_71]

Just get a good solid demo together but don't over think it. All of the originals bands I have been in did it for pretty cheap at a professional studio. Just make sure you do say 3 songs and have a tight budget.

If this goes well you can pool money to do a better release down the road.

Hmm. Given that, I might just take the other 4 songs we have and get them mixed and call it a day. I think we get paralysis by analysis because some of the members want things to be perfect.

 

[Michael Henson]

Just checked out your recording...I think it sounds pretty good and could be SWEET once you get it mixed. If you already have a few other songs already recorded that are this quality, I'd recommend getting this mixed/mastered/polished and just have a demo EP. I have some friends in a band that did that to start and were able to leverage that and tons of live shows into a record deal after about 3(ish) years. Now they're touring with some of the major CCM artists and have been at Winter Jam for the past three years or so.

 

[bassbully]

Just checked out your recording...I think it sounds pretty good and could be SWEET once you get it mixed. If you already have a few other songs already recorded that are this quality, I'd recommend getting this mixed/mastered/polished and just have a demo EP. I have some friends in a band that did that to start and were able to leverage that and tons of live shows into a record deal after about 3(ish) years. Now they're touring with some of the major CCM artists and have been at Winter Jam for the past three years or so.

I agree. Afterall without a label it's still a demo so why wrap up allot time and money in it. If it is a decent clean recording go for it.

I have seen bands waste allot to time and money to produce a demo that most places pitch in the trash or they give away.

My band did a decent demo on budget, when the band got gigs from it we pooled the gig money to make a full studio album that we still sell online and it did ok.

This is a labor of love until you get signed or hit the big time so do it on a budget .

 

[5108audio]

I second nojj's idea of getting a decent room recording and really getting the songs down before heading to any decent studio. Since you haven't been together all that long, I'd wait a bit just to give the band a chance to gel more. You may even write a new batch of songs you like even better!

Best of luck.

 

[Eric_71]

I agree. Afterall without a label it's still a demo so why wrap up allot time and money in it. If it is a decent clean recording go for it.

I have seen bands waste allot to time and money to produce a demo that most places pitch in the trash or they give away.

My band did a decent demo on budget, when the band got gigs from it we pooled the gig money to make a full studio album that we still sell online and it did ok.

This is a labor of love until you get signed or hit the big time so do it on a budget .

We have already decided that we're going to just post our stuff online for free, but I get your point. I think the feedback I'm getting so far from this thread is to make due with what we have and maybe later once the songs are a bit more firmly established and we're ready to spend the time and money, go in to re-record and then worry about making it perfect.

The other songs we have are slightly less 'perfect' than this recording (minor little gaffes here or there), but I think they're pretty decent. They just need a lot of mixing.

 

[Michael Henson]

That's not a bad idea. I think that (if you can) taking time to set a mic up in a room and recording your live sessions in rehearsal will provide you with all kinds of feedback. I've put a lot of though into trying to secure a studio to work on an EP and decided to scratch it until I know I'm completely ready. Some of the results of my "brainstorming" are:

1. You want the whole band to know the songs you're going to record inside and out before getting into the studio. Not just "knows it" where they've been able to get through without making a mistake...
2. You'll probably want every member to have their part specifically worked out. Not just know the song but know their part in the song. Every detail needs to be worked out in advance...Then once you get in there if inspiration for a run or lick, etc. strikes you can record the part you've worked out beforehand and record the "freshly inspired" part and take the one that fits the tune best.
3. Calm down. Sure, you want to put your best foot forward but listen to the studio albums of the greats and compare them to their live performances. They don't do half of the shredding/improv in the studio that they do live. Give 'em a taste of your talents on the album then really blow them away live...Think Brad Paisley, John Mayer or DMB. Tasteful, great chops, but held back in the studio...Live they kill it even more than on the album...sometimes it doesn't seem possible, but they do.


Finally, practice. My dad has always told me (and I'm sure he heard it somewhere else first) that the difference between an amateur and a professional is, "the amateur practices until he gets it right...the professional practices until he can't get it wrong."

I really think (from observing my friends "make it") that taking your time to get the EP right is one step but networking and being willing to travel around and play everywhere there's an opening is the big part...If you're wanting to "make it," that is.

IMHumbleO...of course. I think you guys sound great! If you can keep producing stuff like the link you posted I think you're on the right track!

 

[agreatheight]

The vocals are VERY good in the tracks and I DIG the tune - kinda of Jason Mraz / Maroon 5 / Jamiroquai. Or the idea of the song, at least - because everything else is pretty meh, imo. Mixing could help, but there are several "take-you-out-of-it-moments" that were tracked. Drum tracks need work for sure. Questionable choices on guitar, too. I think the song needs to be stripped back / pulled apart and put back together to support the vocals better and produce better groove and dynamics. If it were me I would redo this RIGHT. Get a producer, spend the money, record for real.

Good luck!

 

[Eric_71]

That's not a bad idea. I think that (if you can) taking time to set a mic up in a room and recording your live sessions in rehearsal will provide you with all kinds of feedback. I've put a lot of though into trying to secure a studio to work on an EP and decided to scratch it until I know I'm completely ready. Some of the results of my "brainstorming" are:

1. You want the whole band to know the songs you're going to record inside and out before getting into the studio. Not just "knows it" where they've been able to get through without making a mistake...
2. You'll probably want every member to have their part specifically worked out. Not just know the song but know their part in the song. Every detail needs to be worked out in advance...Then once you get in there if inspiration for a run or lick, etc. strikes you can record the part you've worked out beforehand and record the "freshly inspired" part and take the one that fits the tune best.
3. Calm down. Sure, you want to put your best foot forward but listen to the studio albums of the greats and compare them to their live performances. They don't do half of the shredding/improv in the studio that they do live. Give 'em a taste of your talents on the album then really blow them away live...Think Brad Paisley, John Mayer or DMB. Tasteful, great chops, but held back in the studio...Live they kill it even more than on the album...sometimes it doesn't seem possible, but they do.


Finally, practice. My dad has always told me (and I'm sure he heard it somewhere else first) that the difference between an amateur and a professional is, "the amateur practices until he gets it right...the professional practices until he can't get it wrong."

I really think (from observing my friends "make it") that taking your time to get the EP right is one step but networking and being willing to travel around and play everywhere there's an opening is the big part...If you're wanting to "make it," that is.

IMHumbleO...of course. I think you guys sound great! If you can keep producing stuff like the link you posted I think you're on the right track!

Thanks for the feedback -- I appreciate it.

I agree with your perspective on this, and it's kind of the conclusion I'm coming to: we're just not road-tested enough to go in and knock something out right away. I think the rest of the band wants to race on ahead, but I am going to try to encourage them to just work with what we have and keep practicing until our expectations align with reality and we are ready to spend the money.

Also, I don't know if this makes any difference, but I'm not exactly trying to "make it." I love music and I hope we can become a good local band that maybe does some regional stuff, but we're all too old to have any shot of making this a career. So maybe that changes things a little bit, maybe it doesn't. Regardless, thanks for the input.

 

[Michael Henson]

Thanks for the feedback -- I appreciate it.

I agree with your perspective on this, and it's kind of the conclusion I'm coming to: we're just not road-tested enough to go in and knock something out right away. I think the rest of the band wants to race on ahead, but I am going to try to encourage them to just work with what we have and keep practicing until our expectations align with reality and we are ready to spend the money.

Also, I don't know if this makes any difference, but I'm not exactly trying to "make it." I love music and I hope we can become a good local band that maybe does some regional stuff, but we're all too old to have any shot of making this a career. So maybe that changes things a little bit, maybe it doesn't. Regardless, thanks for the input.

In the meantime, I really think that recording yourself with just a single mic in the "sweet spot" or whatever will provide all kinds of feedback and let you know when you're ready to record.

I know what you mean about "making it." I've given up on that dream and am in a similar situation where I just would like to create something others enjoy and record it so they have it to enjoy everywhere...

I've talked myself into not rushing it, pursuing excellence, and letting the chips fall where they may. It sounds like you have too and, for me, that takes a lot of pressure off and keeps it enjoyable.

Best of luck!

 

[DwaynieAD]

In the meantime, I really think that recording yourself with just a single mic in the "sweet spot" or whatever will provide all kinds of feedback and let you know when you're ready to record.

I know what you mean about "making it." I've given up on that dream and am in a similar situation where I just would like to create something others enjoy and record it so they have it to enjoy everywhere...

I've talked myself into not rushing it, pursuing excellence, and letting the chips fall where they may. It sounds like you have too and, for me, that takes a lot of pressure off and keeps it enjoyable.

Best of luck!

My vocalists iPhone takes very servicable recordings for the purposes of practice and working on parts. just saying..

 

[T_Bone_TL]

If you have a practice/rehearsal space that is a reasonable size (barn good, auditorium better, normal-scale room bad) there is a lot to be learned from "live-style minimalist recording" where you park a stereo recorder where the audience goes, fix your mix ahead of time, and record. No punch-ins, no mix-downs, and if you make it sound good there, then it sounds good to an audience.

If you only have small spaces available, see if you can hand some money to your local school to use their auditorium or theater (not the gym - please, not the gym-m-m-m-m) for a few hours and still spend a lot less than you would on a studio. A huge amount of the fuss that goes on in studios is compensating for small rooms. A significant amount is also compensating for musicians not really being ready to record. As you have seen, that gets expensive.

I'm certainly biased, having been recording this way for 14 years now. Two MiniDisc recorders of increasing ability (regular compressed, then the HD that would do uncompressed), and an Edirol R09HR currently. Despite the fact that the Edirol can go 24/96, I still do 16/44, because my end point is putting out CDs, so if I do 16/44 I don't have any strange dithering effects from resampling to deal with.

The crux of a good recording, no matter where you do it, is a good performance to record (and a lack of extraneous sounds) - all the technology in the world won't replace that.

 

[Joe Louvar]

Try this - you and the drummer get the songs down really, really tight - then just the two of you go into the studio and record the basic tracks - then bring those track back to your home recording studio. Then let the guitard and vocalist work/record with the basic tracks until everyone is totally happy. Then either keep tracks as is and have it mixed and mastered, or go back to the recording studio and add the gtr and vox, and have it mixed and mastered. The point is - only go into the pro recording after you are completely ready (well rehearsed, knowing all the solo’s, and etc) and to take advantage of the nice acoustically tamed rooms and killer preamp/mic’s, and etc. In other words - unless you have a lot of money to waste - be prepared!!!

 

[masterFlash]

use a handheld recorder to get the basics down at practice.
send everyone copies. At home they can think of how they want to improve their part and\or re-arrange the song.

As far as recording an album 'DONE' is always better than 'PERFECT'.
You will never attain perfection, because 1 month down the road you'll have a whole new way of playing your parts or songs.And neither one is really better than the other, just different.

So organize your goals for recording. Pick the a couple more song than you need. Go in to the studio and knock them out.

Create a schedule\budget and keep to it. If you don't you'll spend too many hours on over-analyzing and redoing parts. Once you are rich then you can spend the thousands of dollars on countless hours of studio time.

 

[Eric_71]

As far as recording an album 'DONE' is always better than 'PERFECT'.

Hahaha. Yeah, I've been afraid of this going into Tom Scholz territory.

 

[nojj]

Guess I'm lucky (or had engaged in some forethought)
Our basement rehearsal room (which is also the studio and where I [DEL]hide from my wife[/DEL] do my graphics/photography)
was pinked with a calibrated mic when I built it, has a wooden floor with a floating floor on top, and a floating drum riser.
All house gear including a bi-amped PA.
Spent a lot of time finding the best spot in the room to catch everybody equally.

The demographics weren't right to continue to build a full-fledged recording studio as originally intended,
so I had rebuilt the whole thing around rehearsals and one-pass.
(I can still use my 24tr simultaneously w/ the room recording)

The real trick is to create a space where everybody can get some work done.
Used to drive me crazy trying to set up/tear down in somebody's garage, and listen to prospective tunes on a tinny laptop.
"What was that killer riff we worked out last week?"
Dunno man, I forgot..."

You need a space where everybody can set up (and hear each other), doesn't stink of cat pee, is well-lit,
(Hell we spend enough time playing in dimly lit venues)
preferably free of distractions, has some kind of recording and duplicating gear, and something to playback or listen to tunes on.
Preferably robust enough to keep up with the band when trying to learn.
A chalk-board or whiteboard is handy as well.
A house kit is a nice touch, as well as a back-line. Your bandmates will thank you, (except the really anal ones)

 

[Marial]

IMO it is useless and a needless expense to record before things are actually ready to go.
Had a few of those show up here at Cornerpocket, and usually send 'em home, and say come back when they're ready.

One option that works great for my bands is to do a one-pass recording on a stand-alone CDR with a single mic in the 'sweet spot', burn copies for all the guys, and send them home, have them listen, and see what needs to be changed/replaced/scrapped.
Lather, rinse and repeat as needed.
Really cuts down on the honing process.

If you have a nice-sounding room, and the guys know how to play at reasonable levels, one can get a reasonable recording out of it.
I've heard worse multi-track recordings than some of the one passes.

This.

With this:

Zoom H4N

All you need to demo songs and get your arrangements together prior to heading into the studio.

 

[nojj]

The only prob I can see with using a Zoom or other hand-held device,
is that to give your fresh recordings to the other band folks before they leave, you still have to get it off of the unit.
I suppose you could just export and burn on a computer, eh?

By the time my fellas are done packing up their instruments and finish their beer,
the original disc recording is finalized, stuck in a highspeed tower duplicator,
and everybody has a copy to take home.

I have been thinking on getting a Zoom to keep me from dragging that old Roland VSR880 out to record our gigs.