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Replacement speakers---stop the madness!

JimmyM

JimmyM

Apr 11, 2005
127,255
125,172
Plymouth NC
Disclosures
Endorsing: Yamaha, Ampeg, Line 6, EMG
#1
I wrote about this in another thread, but I think it deserves a thread of its own. Buying replacement speakers has us bassists cowering in fear we're going to make a tragic mistake, while guitarists still enjoy being able to pick out their speakers by how they sound, not whether the Xmax and qts is enough for the internal cubic volume to do whatever that crap means, otherwise you have to cut an even longer piece of toilet paper roll and glue it to the port.

I'm all for science and getting the right tool for the job, but look, sometimes you need a replacement and you need it now. How come there's no way of simplifying things for us laymen that makes it possible for us to buy the right replacement speaker without having to know how to do trig?

Couldn't there be a database of speakers with cabs they're most suited to in at least to some degree of accuracy, for example, the more common 410 sizes or 115 sizes? Would it hurt manufacturers to make recommendations? Like, "This driver is best suited to larger 15" cabs," or "This driver will not work in a single driver cabinet," and things of that nature? What are we supposed to do? Throw the cab out if a speaker breaks?

Sorry, but I gets me a little frusterrated with things like this.
 
#3
Petebass said:
And how do you propose we go about making sure the manufacturers are honest about it?
Click to expand...
The same way we do now...we talk crap about them on the internet until they're shamed into doing the right thing or they go OOB ;)

I didn't say it would be foolproof, but it's better than nothing like we get now.
 
#4
I'm sorry, but we've been "talkin cr@p about them" for as long as the internet has been invented, and they're still recommending enclosure sizes with a 100Litre range and specifying that their particular speaker is "good for everytihng".

Ya know what's even better again? Download WinISD (it's free), and run a simulation before you buy anything.

The laws of Physics don't change for anyone.
 
#5
Personally, as a very lazy person, I would just pick the three most important features (to my knowledge) -- Xmax, QTS, and FS, and try to match them up to your replacement. You're probably not going to totally screw the pooch that way anyway I'd think.

WINISD is pretty easy to use but, something I'm with the OP on one thing -- it'd be really nice to see a list of valid replacement drivers (and suggested port modifications) for most commercial cabinets. Say start a thread with a list of common commercial cabinets and a list of roughly appropriate replacement drivers.

Honestly though, is it really that big of a deal to research your replacement driver? If you're going to buy replacement ram for your computer, you don't just go buy some and try it. You want the right speed, the right form factor (so-dimms or dimms, or rimms for weirdos), ddr2/ddr3/ddr/sdram, etc.

Basically the same when you replace anything with aftermarket parts.
 
#6
I really don't get this WinISD. I've tried to use it in the past and it can't get it happening. And the instructions are written by someone who's not quite fluent in English so it's tough for me to grasp.
 
#7
I am super lazy. I replaced a 15" speaker in an old 70's Yamaha (truck sized) combo amp. The amp itself doesn't work, but I'm using the cab portion as my 1x15 bass cab for my Fender Bassman 400H. I bought an Eminence Kappa Pro and stuck it in the cab. Guess what? It works perfectly. It even sounds great. Ohms, watts, size and number of mounting screws is all that I looked at (besides price). I figured I could always buy a used 1x15 cab to put the speaker in if this cab didn't work. Again, I'm just too lazy to try and do all the calculations that some people fret about. ;)
 
#9
rpsands said:
Personally, as a very lazy person,.........-- it'd be really nice to see a list of valid replacement drivers (and suggested port modifications) for most commercial cabinets. Say start a thread with a list of common commercial cabinets and a list of roughly appropriate replacement drivers.
Click to expand...
I'd start the thread myself but hey, I'm lazy too :)

Actually I'm not lazy , but that a BIG job you're asking for. How big? Ask Bgavin how many years it's taken him to compile his speaker spreadsheet, which by the way contains most of the info you'll need to pick a replacement driver. It doesn't have the existing cabinet volume or porting for commercial cabs, and when you consider how many of those there are, it's no wonder. But that's easy enough for you to work out for whatever cab you own.......
 
#10
JimmyM said:
I really don't get this WinISD. I've tried to use it in the past and it can't get it happening. And the instructions are written by someone who's not quite fluent in English so it's tough for me to grasp.
Click to expand...
I suggest starting by designing a mock cab for a driver that's already in the database, just for practice. Change the box size and porting as many times as you like, regularly checking the difference the changes make to the graphs. That's probably the easiest way to get the hang of it.

Adding your own drivers to the database is seems difficult at first, but that's only until someone points out that you have to enter the T/S data in a particular order for it to work. Once you know that, things get much easier.
 
#11
Weird...I just tried to see how an Eminence Delta 15 would work in a B-15 double baffle cab, and I got nothing but odd results that seem to be saying it wouldn't work. Yet it works great. Either it works despite it being wrong or I have no clue what I'm doing ;)
 
#12
JimmyM said:
Weird...I just tried to see how an Eminence Delta 15 would work in a B-15 double baffle cab, and I got nothing but odd results that seem to be saying it wouldn't work. Yet it works great. Either it works despite it being wrong or I have no clue what I'm doing ;)
Click to expand...
Interesting. I tried that same driver and it also failed. There must be something wrong with that driver's database file. For some reason it it is setting the tuning frequency of the cab to 0Hz. If you change that to a defined number - say 40Hz, than everything works.

Try the Eminence Gamma 15 instead. That one worked fine.
 
#14
JimmyM said:
Weird...I just tried to see how an Eminence Delta 15 would work in a B-15 double baffle cab, and I got nothing but odd results that seem to be saying it wouldn't work. Yet it works great. Either it works despite it being wrong or I have no clue what I'm doing ;)
Click to expand...

WinISD (and Pro) are not bug free but they don't give you a simple yes or no answer, they give you response plots for you to make your own judgement. If you get no result then you need to check volume, tuning frequency and consistency of T/S data.

Alex
 
#15
JimmyM said:
Weird...I just tried to see how an Eminence Delta 15 would work in a B-15 double baffle cab, and I got nothing but odd results that seem to be saying it wouldn't work. Yet it works great. Either it works despite it being wrong or I have no clue what I'm doing ;)
Click to expand...

That makes weird sense. Everything about amplified musical instruments is running on the ragged edge of "technically perfect" So why should formulas for speakers set us straight? I have trouble with the Winsd charts too, bad at math, But I have speakers,cabs and a screwgun,so?...........
 
#16
JimmyM said:
How come there's no way of simplifying things for us laymen that makes it possible for us to buy the right replacement speaker without having to know how to do trig?
Click to expand...
Computer box programs using T/S parameters is the simple way to find the correct replacement. In those good old days you long for when there was no such thing as either T/S or PC's there was only one way to design a cab and choose a driver for it. The technical term for that process was Empirical Design, and here's how it worked: you built a box of the size you wanted and tried every driver in it that you could until you found one that worked. Or you took a driver you wanted to use and built box after box for it until you found one that worked. :scowl:
And that is why no one uses Empiricle Design any more.:D
Now quit whining. :spit:
 
#17
JimmyM said:
Buying replacement speakers has us bassists cowering in fear we're going to make a tragic mistake, while guitarists still enjoy being able to pick out their speakers by how they sound, not whether the Xmax and qts is enough for the internal cubic volume to do whatever that crap means
Click to expand...

Guitarists are just lucky they don't need 3-4-500 or more watts... That's why. The bastards... :scowl:
 
#18
Petebass said:
Interesting. I tried that same driver and it also failed. There must be something wrong with that driver's database file.
Click to expand...
The program automatically tries to calculate the box size that gives the flattest possible response. Some drivers, the Delta 15 among them, aren't capable of anything close to a flat response, so the program in effect throws it's hands up in frustration and says 'forgetaboutit, you try and good luck to you" and then leaves it up to you to enter your own tuning frequency.
 
#20
organization, graph reading, arithmetic, and a touch of geometry are the skills I needed when using winisd to design and tweek a box with a replacement driver. The results were wonderful.

No trig needed as I recall.

You could just simply call the company and ask for the correct replacement and then pay for it and install it. You may pay more for it, but thats the price you pay for either laziness or simplicity.
 

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