Double Bass Resonator Box or Board?

[Felessan]

I searched and searched, but couldn't find many posts on the topic: does anyone use a slab of wood or perhaps a box to play on?

Some stages are so nice that sticking an endpin into them is practically heresy.

So, for orchestral work or solo work, depending on the venue or rehearsal space, I am curious if anyone tried to use any floor-related devices to improve tone or projection. Solo cellists get their little box, but bassists have to either be Gary Karr or use a mic? Doesn't seem fair. : P

-Trevor

 

[Andrew McGregor]

For orchestra, I've always had a little bit of oak (you could use any really durable wood, oak is just what we had lying around) with a couple of holes countersunk in the top and some really, really hard rubber on the bottom, which I tie to my stool with a bit of nylon rope, rigged to be adjustable in length with a little toggle. That gets you good connection to the stage, doesn't put holes in the stage, and will NEVER slip, no matter what.

For solo, you could ask for a 'cello riser (or bring your own). If you're making one, use aircraft-grade (or loudspeaker-grade) birch plywood rather than any kind of chipboard or fiberboard, because shredded woods absorb sound like nothing.

 

[Felessan]

For orchestra, I've always had a little bit of oak.

That gets you good connection to the stage, doesn't put holes in the stage, and will NEVER slip, no matter what.

Hmm, so what size is your little bit of oak? Do you use it in order to get a different sound, or to prevent swiss-cheesing the stage?

As for the resonator box, why birch? Why not maple or pine or something else? Maybe even carbon fiber...

-Trevor

 

[Andrew McGregor]

It's about, oh, 10x6x2 cm, and it's simply about not making holes in the stage (and not slipping on tiles). I've never been able to tell any difference in sound between using it and not, on a nice resonant stage.

Birch because that's a common material for building airplanes and loudspeakers, and so birch ply is reasonably easy to get. It's a nice resonant material too.

 

[David Potts]

I posted this suggestion on another site.

To give the bass its best chance I like to plant the point of the end pin in wood, not a rubber donut which slips too easily on dusty surfaces. I staple a piece of sticky perforated plastic non-slip sheet (the sort sold to protect furniture being scratched by ornaments) to a 6" x 8" bit of 1/4" pine plywood. This cheap alternative works well on all surfaces, especially on carpet, and fits into my bass cover pockets. Donuts . The only problem I have then is, if I am on a waxed or tiled floor the bass doesn't slip but I propel myself backwards! My stool has hard plastic caps as feet which I need to replace with softer rubber walking stick tips. Another alternative is to tether my board to the stool. Yet another idea is to have a long flat piece of pine plywood or thin solid pine about 5 - 6" wide with a hole in one end to take one foot of your stool.

By the time my sticky plastic starts to lose its grip (yes, fills with dust) the wood looks pock-marked and I throw it away and start again.

A lot of venues don't appreciate their floors being holed. The Sydney Opera House Concert Hall stage is floored with an Australian hardwood, common name being Brush Box. We were forbidden to put holes in it so sat, stool and bass, on stepped boxes called" risers". Brush Box is hard, waxy and sound deadening. The stage was built for circus elephants, not for resonating, so the risers did help our sound but the acoustics of the hall do not support the bass end of an orchestra.

Playing on a box helps if it has a fairly large resonating surface and you can sit on it with the bass. Then you feel connected to the instrument and its sound because you can feel the vibrations.

Years ago I tried a small resonating plate of wood suspended on stubby wooden blocks above the stage. It was some proprietary brand and seemed to only support overtones selectively, not bass fundamentals, so was rejected as an idea.

Cheers....

DP

 

[Felessan]

So, the object is to improve the bass's ability to be heard by myself and others. It would probably be a major nuisance in an orchestral bass section, but for solos, it might be pretty cool--if it worked.

If I made a large "bass box" that could fit either a bass and myself or just a bass, I could try to tune it so it resonates well at the bass's lowest notes and helps projection of the higher notes--but would that make a big enough difference to warrant using it for solos? Sometimes you get stuck on carpet, or the stage is made of some crappy wood that doesn't work well... maybe I could just take a broken bass and stick my endpin in that, hahahaha.

I imagine a shallow box that has a solid place for the player to stand apart from the resonating section, but the big question is this: where to put the endpin? Without any evidence, my intuition tells me that the endpin would create a node on the box, much like a soundpost. The design of the box might have to account for this. Any thoughts?

-Trevor

 

[JoeyNaeger]

I heard about using these kinds of boxes before and I have mixed feelings about the idea. For one, any vibrational energy that is getting spent on making this box resonant is not getting used by the actual bass to make sound. At the same time, perhaps the vibrations coming through the end pin are going to be lost regardless of whether it is planted on top of a resonating box. I think it be worth testing, but I've never had the time.

 

[thedbassist]

Check this out, its more professional: Link Removed

 

[calebbarton]

mine is sitting on a piece of wood with wheels, the difference in tone is substantial. i would recommend getting one of those floor things that focus sound.

 

[Felessan]

For one, any vibrational energy that is getting spent on making this box resonant is not getting used by the actual bass to make sound.

I'm not so sure of that. Unless your bass is floating in the air, some of its vibrational energy is spent virtually noiselessly traveling down the endpin into a dead floor that just soaks up whatever vibrations you give it--not translating them into sound. The whole idea is to turn ALL of the vibrating energy into sound in the air.

We've all (hopefully) noticed how much easier notes pop out (and how much more sound results) on a nice wood stage than on concrete or grass. Notes also pop out much easier in a bass section (when you're in tune, lol) because everyone else in the orchestra is helping your bass resonate by bombarding it with their sound waves.

That Harmonic SoundBoard link is kind of interesting, but it's not very informative... makes it look like magic. They don't really even tell you what it is in detail. Also, I want to hear sound samples and comparisons! Or are they afraid to post such things?

I suppose we can conclude that a flat piece of wood would improve your sound if you were on grass or carpet (or at the very least help you hear yourself better) but not many people care for the resonator box idea. I'm still open to ideas.

mine is sitting on a piece of wood with wheels, the difference in tone is substantial. i would recommend getting one of those floor things that focus sound.

Are you talking about the Harmonic SoundBoard? You augmented it with a rolling platform?

-Trevor

 

[JoeyNaeger]

I think the resonating box is an intriguing idea for solo performances. I can't imagine it being practical in any other situation. All I've been able to find is this patent.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Maybe someday, I can try making one.

 

[Andrew McGregor]

Well, I know some orchestras and/or concert halls have bass risers that they use for the whole section, and in some halls it can make a big difference. I've not had to do that, because all the halls I've ever regularly played in have nice stages.

 

[Felessan]

I think the resonating box is an intriguing idea for solo performances. I can't imagine it being practical in any other situation. All I've been able to find is this patent.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Maybe someday, I can try making one.

Ha, I've actually seen that design in person. A cellist recently performed with the LA Phil at Disney Hall using that type of box. Thanks for the patent link! It has already come in handy for determining that other inventions of mine aren't patented yet... at least as of 1976...

-Trevor

 

[David Potts]

I have observed the conventional wisdom that a "sprung" stage, one where the timber flooring was suspended on joists and bearers and had some spring in it, became an extender of bass and cello sound. Like a passive radiator. The bass does send vibrations down through the end pin. I don't think that energy is wasted, except on concrete or grass as suggested above.

I'm not sure I agree with the bit about being bombarded by everyone else's sound waves as suggested by Felessan above.

DP

 

[Felessan]

I'm not sure I agree with the bit about being bombarded by everyone else's sound waves as suggested by Felessan above.

DP

Next time everyone is tuning, try and play a low "A" as soft as you can... it's easier when everyone else is playing that note already. For that matter, find a silent situation, don't play at all, have your stand partner play an A, stick your ear up to the neck, and have him mute his strings abruptly. If you're in tune with his A, you should still hear it resonating in your bass even after the sound source is gone.

When I play near my acoustic guitar, it vibrates sympathetically (even through its case) with my bass playing... provided I'm in tune. : )

-Trevor

 

[David Potts]

I agree with sympathetic vibrations eg checking the tuning of bottom G by observing the open G vibrating in sympathy, or of C on A string by listening for the octave G harmonic.

Not saying you are totally wrong but I add two more thoughts. If the bass section is playing in tune and there are three or more players the group resonance takes over from individual instruments. The acoustic qualities of the venue, including the floor construction, have a huge impact on bass end sound.

Other instruments are more likely to be affected by our harmonic series, especially the cellos?

DP

 

[Felessan]

Right, especially since the cellos are usually in front of the basses with their tops parallel to the basses.

Perhaps I can make it more clear what I'm thinking. I'm saying that if your instrument has a particular "potential" set up, it will tend to want to release that potential--like holding a ball in the air, all you have to do is let go.

That's what the other instruments are doing in the orchestra--giving your bass some potential to vibrate at the note they're playing. Sure, they're usually at higher harmonics, but it still helps. Obviously, the basses will help you the most.

If the room/stage/instrument is set up to allow those vibrations freest motion, it should help your instrument respond better. The key is reducing all of the "friction" so the sound simply slides out whenever you want it to, with only a little nudge from the player.

So you pull back your A-string with your bow, and you don't want any resistance to its vibration anywhere that's coupled to your instrument--thus the resonator box. If the box is set up to vibrate sympathetically and produce sound at all the frequencies you'll play, you won't have to worry _as_much_ about the room you're in.

Of course, this all makes sense in theory, and in my head. The platform for the entire bass section that Andrew brought up is a neat idea. I haven't ever used one in a group. Perhaps we don't need it in our hall, or perhaps it's too bulky for the techs to deal with (and store somewhere). If anyone has used one, would you say it made a very significant difference? Player perspective, audience perspective?

Would a solo resonator box for bass be too large to tote around for your solos? The cello ones are already pretty big.

-Trevor

 

[David Potts]

Our Sydney Symphony risers were for each player. I designed and made the first ones, each from a sheet of 4 x 8 construction grade pine plywood 3/4" thick. The top was 6' long and just over 3' wide and braced twice (in 1/3rds) underneath with 2 x 1 pine glued and screwed. The offcuts were used to make sides and ends so the top of the box was about 6" above stage level. Slots were cut in each end for hand holds and to help allow the box to resonate. The riser was big enough for player, stool and bass and did assist us to hear and project quite a lot more sound. Some thin wooden beading around the edge kept stools safe. The Sydney Opera House Concert Hall Stage is dead as a dodo otherwise!! Later some taller risers were made for the back desks to avoid sightline problems. The best thing was that the risers delineated our space on what could be a cramped stage!

DP

 

[Andrew McGregor]

Hi David... I knew the Sydney Symphony used that trick, nice to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I did once play on risers in Brisbane with the NZYO during the World Expo up there in 1987, and I know the Auckland Philharmonic use them, so I wonder if this is a southern hemisphere thing? It certainly works well on a dead stage.

 

[bribass]

FWIW-I played a wedding ceremony at a landmark Upper west Side NYC church last night.

When I was setting up I noticed under the piano a well worn plank of wood. It was about 2.5 feet X 3.5' feet w/ 2 inch high sides that were cut out in the middle length so there was some open space between the top and the floor. There was a hole in one corner of this small platform. After looking at it for a minute I realized it was a platform for cellists and probably had been at the church for decades atleast.

I decided to take the rubber tip off of my bass' endpin and try the platform out. It was a bit small for a bassist and bass, but I was able to comfortably play on it in a standing position w/ the pin in the corner hole. I contrasted the sound to playing w/ my rubber endpin tip on and on the tile floor.

The bass was deffinately a bit louder w/ the platform and it seemed to help projection as well. Sounded great in the blend of instruments.

BG