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Rig not loud enough, Volume problem?

Revmizery

Revmizery

Feb 24, 2007
426
14
Trenton , New Jersey
#1
I'm looking for some advice to see if I'm running my amp wrong or somethings just not right. I have the volume on my pre at almost 10 and the volume on the power amp at 10 and 9. Yet the speakers don't pump or move at all, and I cant keep up with a my guitarist's 4X12. Is there something wrong? Any info or suggestions will help.



Signal.
My Pre is a Trace Elliot GP12SMX tube preamp
My power amp is a crown XLS802
500Watts@8ohms
800Watts@4ohms

Bass>Wah>XO Q-tron+>Alesis Limiter>BassDrive>input

Send>SansAmp RBI>CE-20>DD-20>RockTron Hush>Return

Left Out>BBE So MaX362 Ch1>Power Amp>Ampeg SVT410HE

Right Out>BBe So Max362 Ch2>Power Amp>Ampeg SVT115E(With Carvin 4ohm 600Watt Speaker)
 
#2
You've got too much stuff in your signal chain. The signal just gets tired and stops before it gets to your speakers ;).

Seriously, unplug all the effects, turn the gain way down, and just start with your bass and the amp & cabs. If that's OK, then add one thing at a time until the rig goes quiet, and you've probably found the problem.

Of course, check batteries, wall warts, cables, etc., first.
 
#3
1. Guitarist is too loud. You can't fix that with your equipment, unless you smack him upside the head with your bass.

2. You're expecting the bottom end to cut through, when it's the mids that do so.

3. Your guitarist is playing lots of bass notes, making you superfluous in the band. See #1.

4. Your speakers are reaching power compression, the point where additional power just creates heat, not loudness. This can be improved by better cabinet design, but never eliminated.

5. Your cabinets are not very sensitive. The 410HE is a 99dB cab, whereas the Eden 410 is 106dB. That extra 7dB would take 5x more power. The 115E is 97dB; making up the extra 3dB of the Eden 115XLT (100dB) would take 2x the power.

That said, there is no standard for these ratings, but they can be used as a guide. I've quoted the Eden cabs because their ratings are easy to find, and the ratings seem to be fairly honest. Cranking more power into your Ampeg cabs may not be feasible; either you hit power compression or you exceed the cab rating, or it farts out.
 
#4
Let's figure it out with the numbers.
Assume the geetar player uses 12" drivers with 103 SPL sensitivity. He has a 100w amp, meaning it can deliver 28.3 volts into 8 ohms. Most likely his 4x12 is 4-ohm running four 16-ohm drivers in parallel. This is Best Case for his noise making ability.

Each doubling of parallel drivers increases output by +6dB. Doubling twice (1 to 2, 2 to 4) is a +12dB increase over a single driver. This means he can make 115 SPL at 2.83v (1w), or 135 SPL at 28.3 volts.

Commercial bass cabs specs are artificially inflated. A lot. If you only play at 1,000 Hz, great. Otherwise you will find they are not very loud at 40 Hz. Let's use the Kappalite 3015LF for a bass driver. From the Eminence data sheets, you get about 95 SPL at 80 Hz. A proper vented box extends this response down to -3dB around 44 Hz.

Two parallel 3015LF produces 80 Hz, 101 SPL at 2.83v. Two of these at maximum power is only 127 SPL, not enough to catch the geetar player. Doubling again to four 3015LF, you can match the guitar player at 135 SPL using 160w per 3015LF. This gives you a nice amount of headroom, even if not needed by 3015LF.

To match your guitar player, you need a two-channel power amp capable of 320w (minimum) into 4 ohms, per channel, for the subs. You need top boxes to match, so another power amp is required. Each 3015LF box is 5 cubic feet internal volume, hence 20+ cubic feet for the subs alone.

This is a whole lot of equipment to carry, to match some fool who won't turn down.
 
#5
Ditto on Rick's point; your guitarist is just too loud. There is NEVER the need for a 4x12 to be cranked, on any stage. Also, it would be a good idea to simply plug your bass into the pre/power amp setup, and try to get your volume sans your extensive signal chain!
 
#6
Guitar players shouldn't be allowed to own anything more than a 60 watt 1X12. There's never a need for more as past that point, a PA should be doing the rest - as with your bass.
 
#8
Good point on taking every thing out of the chain and putting it back in one by one to see if something is sucking the signal to much.

Bgavin,
At first that totally blew my mind and required a second read through to make sense. But here is a question, I have been poking around the avatar site thinking of getting either 2 4ohm B410neo's or 1 and a 4ohm B212Neo. Now looking at the drivers in the 10" their sensitivity is about 97.3db per Driver. So 4 of them would be about 109db in a 410 configuration depending on the wiring situation?
And the B212Neo would be about 103db?
 
#9
remember that the specs on those avatar speakers are only meaningful for a given frequency range, with +/- tolerances included. even then the spec is for 1K

i wouldn't worry so much about your gear yet. I'd get the fool to turn down, and look at your EQ settings.
 
#10
Revmizery said:
Now looking at the drivers in the 10" their sensitivity is about 97.3db per Driver. So 4 of them would be about 109db in a 410 configuration depending on the wiring situation?
Click to expand...
Wired parallel, yes, but that's at a 2 ohm load. And that 97dB sensitivity is above 100 Hz. You can figure it to be 10dB lower at 50 Hz. You're at about a 10dB deficit compared to a guitar 4x12. Tell him to turn it down, or get a 1x12, or be prepared for what happens when you get a rig capable of the same output: Two Fridges. :D
 
#12
After reading some responses I think I worded this question a bit wrong. It's not a volume war between me and the guitar. My question is more like even though the amp is nearing the 10 on the dial in volume it doesn't sound like it is. a few facts,
I tend to boost my low mids
Even with everything at full blast there isn't any clipping or distortion at in anywhere in the amp, which makes me think something might not be right.

Just wanted to toss that out so everyone can get the right idea on my question.

Note: Guitard is currently running a 5150 into a Deizel 4x12 but he has a JCM 800 on the way.
 
#15
atheos said:
I don't see if anybody has specifically asked this but... Have you replaced the tube(s) in the preamp? Because that would be quite obvious thing to check in the first place...
Click to expand...

That has seemed to do the trick thanks. All that I had laying around the house was a Mesa Boogie 12AX7-A so that went in for the time being. Now I need to do some research on a better pre-amp tube. if any one has some suggestions about them a good high gain one post it.
 

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