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Round vs. hex core string stiffness

#21
dmusic148 said:
I'd have thought so too, it seems perfectly obvious. But DR says otherwise.
I had a theory, but it didn't pan out: I took the E strings off of my basses and weighed them on a fairly accurate food portion scale, after insuring they were the same length. My caliper says they are both .106" diameter. Sunbeam comes in at 1.3 Oz, and a Lo-Rider appears to be slightly lighter- the scale display bounced between 1.2 and 1.3 Oz., which is the opposite of what I expected to find. Hmmm.....:confused:
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Did you make sure not to include the weight of the balls and only the full wrap part of the string? Cutting a 1-foot section from the middle of the string might help with the accuracy.

dmusic148 said:
I hear you, Ken, but is that really it? Because the Lo-Riders really seem to have more actual tension.
I can't find at-pitch tensions anywhere on the DR site. That would be telling.
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I concur. If you need a serious truss rod adjustment, you either had an unfortunate change in humidity at the exact same time, or there is a tension difference.

Another related question, are the string gauges between the two sets (your sunbeams vs. the lo-riders) exactly the same? If not, that would explain the tension difference.
 
#22
dmusic148 said:
I hear you, Ken, but is that really it? Because the Lo-Riders really seem to have more actual tension.
I can't find at-pitch tensions anywhere on the DR site. That would be telling.
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Over my head. I agree that the Lo Riders definitely FEEL higher tension (i.e., stiffer), but not sure if that is actual tension or just a stiffer core that feels, well, stiffer!

Not sure about the neck movement issue, since some necks can move a bit after any string change.

Interested to know the science behind this. The links don't provide much enlightenment for me.
 
#23
FunkMetalBass said:
Did you make sure not to include the weight of the balls and only the full wrap part of the string? Cutting a 1-foot section from the middle of the string might help with the accuracy.
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No, I did not, as I didn't want to ruin them. The ball-ends do appear to be identical though. I did measure and insure that the diameters and lengths were identical, so I don't think there could be much error.
 
#24
Well, I had another bright idea- I wanted to see if I could measure a tension difference between strings, so I rigged up a way to measure G string deflection at the 12th fret, while at the same time measuring how much force it takes to do it. I found it takes approximately 2lbs., 10 Oz. to deflect the string a distance of .620", with either type of string. Granted my apparatus isn't terribly precise, but I was expecting an obvious difference, and I don't see one.
Time for a drink.
 
#25
KJung said:
Over my head. I agree that the Lo Riders definitely FEEL higher tension (i.e., stiffer), but not sure if that is actual tension or just a stiffer core that feels, well, stiffer!

Not sure about the neck movement issue, since some necks can move a bit after any string change.

Interested to know the science behind this. The links don't provide much enlightenment for me.
Click to expand...

Ideally, with identical string tension, there should be no neck movement whatsoever.

Realistically, there will be some due to minor inconsistencies, but it sounds like it was much more than would be expected, indicating a change in string tension.

Also, my question still stands to the OP as to whether or not all four strings in each set were of the same gauge.
 
#26
dmusic148 said:
Well, I had another bright idea- I wanted to see if I could measure a tension difference between strings, so I rigged up a way to measure G string deflection at the 12th fret, while at the same time measuring how much force it takes to do it. I found it takes approximately 2lbs., 10 Oz. to deflect the string a distance of .620", with either type of string. Granted my apparatus isn't terribly precise, but I was expecting an obvious difference, and I don't see one.
Time for a drink.
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This is would be a measurement of the stiffness, and not the tension. Tension is parallel to the string.
 
#28
FunkMetalBass said:
This is would be a measurement of the stiffness, and not the tension. Tension is parallel to the string.
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I understand, but I don't have a way to measure it properly, and I thought I could extrapolate some sort of result from the data. Nope. Besides, the actual bending moment is so small that it's hard for me to imagine how the strings' resistance to bending would have a role in this.
 
#29
dmusic148 said:
Yes, they are, within reason. They are both .045"-.105" sets, and they match to within +/- .001"
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I know sometimes 45-100 sets will vary on the D- or A-string, so I had to be sure.

dmusic148 said:
I understand, but I don't have a way to measure it properly, and I thought I could extrapolate some sort of result from the data. Nope.
Click to expand...

I think this is one of those "correlation does not imply causation" situations. A valiant effort, though, as I was also considering buying a single string of both the Lo-Rider and Sunbeams to measure tension and stiffness of each.

In fact, I still might. Then I can dissect them and measure core and wrap diameters as well.
 
#30
dmusic148 said:
What happens to the wrap wire as it's brought around the hex core? Is it simply displaced by the hex corners?
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FunkMetalBass said:
My understanding is that the wrap wire is actually bent around the hex corners, but with the wrap compression and addition of second and third wraps, it's unnoticeable.
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NKUSigEp said:
Couldn't this just as easily be perceived as a hexagon inside of the circle, therefore giving the rounds more mass?
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FunkMetalBass said:
D'Addario talks about the wrap wire "biting" the hex core vertices.
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I think the first wrap wire winds around a hex core in a near-circle, with the hex corners biting slightly into the wrap wire. It would take huge winding tension to bend the wrap wire completely against the surface of the hex. Single wrap hex core strings do not have a hexagonal wrap shape, the wrap is circular (or very near circular), otherwise you could feel or see the hexagonal shape.

So all else being equal i think the round core would have more mass therefore more linear scientific tension (in the diagram the hex sits inside the circle). However the 'feel' of the string is looser because it is more flexible, the core doesn't bite into the wrap wire.
 
#32
dmusic148 said:
Everyone knows that round-core strings have less tension than hex-core strings. Anyone know why? I just put on a set of Lo-Riders, where I'd previously used Sunbeams and although I was aware that Lo-Riders would be tighter than Sunbeams, I was unprepared for just HOW MUCH tighter they actually are. I had to tighten the truss rod quite a bit, and do a general setup to get it playable.
So, why? Why the difference, when the gauges are the same? I truly don't understand how there can be such a large difference.
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Probably due to a different winding formula, which can change the mass a lot while staying the same gauge. I doubt it's primarily due to the different shaped core. knuckle_head said there are ways of winding a 100 to make it heavier than a 105 of a different winding formula. Looking at the unit weight values of Circle K Strings nickel hex rounds and D'Addario nickel hex rounds, the CKS are around 5% heavier for the same gauge.

We need David Brummet, he's the guy who winds Circle Ks and has huge experience in the industry.
 
#38
ixlramp said:
Probably due to a different winding formula, which can change the mass a lot while staying the same gauge. I doubt it's primarily due to the different shaped core. knuckle_head said there are ways of winding a 100 to make it heavier than a 105 of a different winding formula. Looking at the unit weight values of Circle K Strings nickel hex rounds and D'Addario nickel hex rounds, the CKS are around 5% heavier for the same gauge.
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Interesting. Maybe that's what I remember Skip saying with regards to his strings - not that the hex cores are larger, but that he uses specific winding techniques to give his hex cores more mass.

I apologize for the misinformation, everyone.

dmusic148 said:
That would be very cool of you. Please keep us posted if you do it.
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Will do. I wonder if I could get accurate results doing it all on a bass, or if I'd need to devise some separate experiment to do it.
 
#39
ixlramp said:
So all else being equal i think the round core would have more mass therefore more linear scientific tension (in the diagram the hex sits inside the circle). However the 'feel' of the string is looser because it is more flexible, the core doesn't bite into the wrap wire.
Click to expand...

That is kind of where I'm coming out, based on nothing but a gut feel for the above. The round core results in a more 'flexible' feel, but not necessarily a true tension difference.
 

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