Rumble 500-- fix line out?

[plf]

Hey, all. I've been playing a Rumble 500 for about a year now-- love the light weight, sounds pretty good, reasonably flexible, and did I mention the weight?

But! It has a huge problem! The Line Out is post-master. If I need to adjust my stage volume for monitoring, then the FOH engineer will need to fix my levels in the mains. On very quiet stages, eg with acoustic groups, my level is too low to send the board a decent signal.

So, has anyone modded a Rumble 500 (or other Rumble; presumably they have similar preamps) to have a pre-master line out?

 

[plf]

The other solution is to carry something like a Sansamp and run into the effects return, effectively using the amp only as a powered cabinet. But I'm hesitant to complicate my extremely simple setup

 

[Redbrangus]

Or another solution is just using a regular ol' external direct box to get the DI signal. I doubt there's an easy mod to fix this issue with the amp though.

 

[plf]

Or another solution is just using a regular ol' external direct box to get the DI signal. I doubt there's an easy mod to fix this issue with the amp though.

Yeah, that's definitely an option. I'm kind of attached to having what I hear onstage being at least similar to what comes out of the mains. I'm not a huge fan of the straight into the board sound; it needs some sort of shaping/ ampiness to work for me. But that doesn't rule out the Sansamp-type devices; those all have some type of amp/ cab simulation happening

 

[agedhorse]

What you hear on stage will never be similar to the mains unless your speaker cabinets are similar to the mains (which is rarely true).

Is it possible? Well anything is possible if you have enough money.

Is it easy? Well anything is easy if you have enough knowledge, understanding, skill, time and money.

One thing you might not be aware of is that the basic architecture of the Rumble 500 is quite specific, the master volume stage is pre EQ and pre countour, which is part of "it's thing", and the DI output also has some cabinet emulation which all works together with the architecture to deliver what the designer intended.

Could I do it? Sure. Would it make sense? no because it's a difficult, time consuming procedure. You could buy a new amp that suits your needs better for a lot less than I would charge. For example, the Rumble 800 has the pre-post DI already installed, the architecture is different than the Rumble 500 which makes this a more practical feature. Trading your Rumble 500 in for an 800 would absolutely cost less the modifying the 500 (IMO by a lot).

 

[plf]

What you hear on stage will never be similar to the mains unless your speaker cabinets are similar to the mains (which is rarely true).

Is it possible? Well anything is possible if you have enough money.

Is it easy? Well anything is easy if you have enough knowledge, understanding, skill, time and money.

One thing you might not be aware of is that the basic architecture of the Rumble 500 is quite specific, the master volume stage is pre EQ and pre countour, which is part of "it's thing", and the DI output also has some cabinet emulation which all works together with the architecture to deliver what the designer intended.

Could I do it? Sure. Would it make sense? no because it's a difficult, time consuming procedure. You could buy a new amp that suits your needs better for a lot less than I would charge. For example, the Rumble 800 has the pre-post DI already installed, the architecture is different than the Rumble 500 which makes this a more practical feature. Trading your Rumble 500 in for an 800 would absolutely cost less the modifying the 500 (IMO by a lot).

That's useful information about the 800, thanks!

& of course, you can't expect to have exactly the same bass sound out of the mains and onstage. But I think saying it can't even be similar is an exaggeration. If I'm playing, say, an overdriven SVT, then the sound at FOH should bear at least a passing resemblance to an SVT

 

[agedhorse]

That's useful information about the 800, thanks!

& of course, you can't expect to have exactly the same bass sound out of the mains and onstage. But I think saying it can't even be similar is an exaggeration. If I'm playing, say, an overdriven SVT, then the sound at FOH should bear at least a passing resemblance to an SVT

It can certainly sound like say an overdriven SVT, but how you do it on stage, listening to it on stage is entirely different to how it's done at FOH, because the PA system (at least in the size systems I work with) has far greater bandwidth and capabilities than your bass amp, and the acoustic environment of the room will be entirely different (especially in the context of the mix and what you want or need to hear on stage).

 

[plf]

It can certainly sound like say an overdriven SVT, but how you do it on stage, listening to it on stage is entirely different to how it's done at FOH, because the PA system (at least in the size systems I work with) has far greater bandwidth and capabilities than your bass amp, and the acoustic environment of the room will be entirely different (especially in the context of the mix and what you want or need to hear on stage).

Of course; sound onstage and sound in the mains are different animals. My point is that I'd like to at least have a basic idea of what sound the audience is experiencing when I play, which rules out a squeaky clean DI in front of the amp

 

[agedhorse]

Of course; sound onstage and sound in the mains are different animals. My point is that I'd like to at least have a basic idea of what sound the audience is experiencing when I play, which rules out a squeaky clean DI in front of the amp

If you are using pedals to get your overdriven tone, then a DI after the pedals but before the amp can work, as can a pre-eq DI. It really depends on the situation, but when I was mixing touring acts, the majority (about 75%) were taken pre-eq and FOH was responsible for refining the sound based on what the player was attempting to achieve on stage but translated to the auditorium and in the context of the mix. Of course these weren't bar bands, but the concept remains the same (provided of course that the bass in in the PA and the PA is fully capable).

 

[plf]

If you are using pedals to get your overdriven tone, then a DI after the pedals but before the amp can work, as can a pre-eq DI. It really depends on the situation, but when I was mixing touring acts, the majority (about 75%) were taken pre-eq and FOH was responsible for refining the sound based on what the player was attempting to achieve on stage but translated to the auditorium and in the context of the mix. Of course these weren't bar bands, but the concept remains the same (provided of course that the bass in in the PA and the PA is fully capable).

I have no doubt that I could give you a pre-EQ, completely untreated signal, and get a result I was perfectly happy with.

The same is not true of many of the venues I regularly play, not to put too fine a point on it. So it's important to me to be able to hand over an XLR and get at least a usable tone if all the engineer does is turn it up.

 

[Minimalist]

Of course; sound onstage and sound in the mains are different animals. My point is that I'd like to at least have a basic idea of what sound the audience is experiencing when I play, which rules out a squeaky clean DI in front of the amp

What you are missing is faith in the person doing the FOH mix. If your sound relies on effects they should be part of what you send to the FOH. Anything else is really up to the person doing the mix.

Be prepared to get feedback you won't like. The overdrive might sound awesome on stage but awful through the main board. Or the chorus might be not enough for the FOH. A good mix is all about team work and good communication. and the teamleader for the FOH is the person at the mixer.

 

[agedhorse]

What you are missing is faith in the person doing the FOH mix. If your sound relies on effects they should be part of what you send to the FOH. Anything else is really up to the person doing the mix.

Be prepared to get feedback you won't like. The overdrive might sound awesome on stage but awful through the main board. Or the chorus might be not enough for the FOH. A good mix is all about team work and good communication. and the teamleader for the FOH is the person at the mixer.

This is the biggest difference in stepping up a level or two, and why pro FOH engineers cringe at having to deal with players who are inexperienced and think they need to micro-manage their tone without understanding all of the balances and trade-offs that go into making everybody sound their best in the room and in the mix. When a player gives a sound guy an awful signal as a starting point, it's tough to impossible to polish a turd... it's frankly easier to move on and duck or bury the bass in the mix.

It didn't take me long to step way past this and into the pro level touring industry... sure you have egos and weirdness but in general it's a LOT easier to do your job and the pay is a LOT better too. I would make more in a week than entire non-touring bands would make in a month, maybe twice as much. The caveat is that you really had to be good to remain in demand, there is little room for posers. The guys who can't cut it end up doing bar bands on weekends plus some sort of day job (or a rich girl friend).

 

[Rip Van Dan]

What you are missing is faith in the person doing the FOH mix. If your sound relies on effects they should be part of what you send to the FOH. Anything else is really up to the person doing the mix.

Be prepared to get feedback you won't like. The overdrive might sound awesome on stage but awful through the main board. Or the chorus might be not enough for the FOH. A good mix is all about team work and good communication. and the teamleader for the FOH is the person at the mixer.

This is really true. When I'm sending a DI from my 1999 Eden WT500/800, I don't have a choice of a pre-EQ send. So when I send my DI to the board (typically through a snake) I make sure the sound tech knows I'm running flat with the exception of a boost to 1:30 in my low-mids at 250Hz.I am not running compression on it or any Enhance (shape control). I also tell him I can adjust the level of my DI to either more or less if he has a preference. If they are mic'ing my cab, I will give them the same info on my settings. So far they are all happy with the DI level set flat.

I do find however that with my big Eden amp pushing up to 800-watts into my DNS-410 (by DNA, handles up to 1400-watts rms) that if I run my master up to 10:30, they will tell me to turn down. I presume that's because the level of my rig starts interfering with what they are doing with my bass through the FOH. So I run it at 10:15 and am just pleased I don't need to lug around an 810 cabinet for those wide open Music Festivals.

When playing "normal venues" I'll walk the perimeter, the middle, and the dance floor to check levels and balance of the group (wireless are great tools!). Of course, my gear is providing the bass for the venue even if they have the guitars and keys running through our PA and monitors.

 

[Elmstreet]

I have no doubt that I could give you a pre-EQ, completely untreated signal, and get a result I was perfectly happy with.

The same is not true of many of the venues I regularly play, not to put too fine a point on it. So it's important to me to be able to hand over an XLR and get at least a usable tone if all the engineer does is turn it up.

This is why upgraded my Rumble 500 to a Stage 800. It was important to me to have the option to send a pre-eq signal or a post.

I play small enough places to where we're doing our own sound most of the time so for those gigs a post eq signal with a cab sim is what I am sending to the PA.

But I definitely wanted the option to send a clean DI when we do work with a sound engineer, which is rare but it does happen about 20% of the time in my case.

 

[basscooker]

Oooof.

I'm gonna have to disagree with an amp that doesn't isolate its on-board DI output from the master volume.

Just putting that out there.

I'll show myself out.

 

[Elmstreet]

This is why upgraded my Rumble 500 to a Stage 800. It was important to me to have the option to send a pre-eq signal or a post.

I play small enough places to where we're doing our own sound most of the time so for those gigs a post eq signal with a cab sim is what I am sending to the PA.

But I definitely wanted the option to send a clean DI when we do work with a sound engineer, which is rare but it does happen about 20% of the time in my case.

One more reason I forgot to mention is that the Stage 800 has a DI out level that can be raised and lowered in the settings but is not altered by the Master

 

[Pocket Dave]

I've experienced post-EQ, but not post-master. How common is that?

Seems kind of goofy; WDIK

 

[agedhorse]

Oooof.

I'm gonna have to disagree with an amp that doesn't isolate its on-board DI output from the master volume.

Just putting that out there.

I'll show myself out.

I've experienced post-EQ, but not post-master. How common is that?

Seems kind of goofy; WDIK

It's not terribly common, but is usually done when there is on-board overdrive or channel switching and there is a desire for the output to follow whatever is active. In the case of the Rumble, it's all integrated as part of the basic architecture that the designer intended for this particular operation. Because it has significant cabinet emulation as part of the DI output, it appears that they took the view that it's supposed to mimic micing a cabinet, which also happens to be post master volume.

The TT-800 is this way as well, but for a different reason. This output tracks the channel switching, and since there is a mater for each channel to aid in balancing levels when overdriving the input stages, it has to be post master volume controls to track the switching. Since there are often intentional master volume differences between the two channel because of the desired volume per channel, these differences are then preserved when the channels are switched. There is also a pre-eq but post first gain stage DI out on this amp, two different outputs for different needs or preferences.

 

[Jeff Hughes]

Maybe just upgrade your amp to one with the desired features if financially manageable.

 

[plf]

I'm gonna have to disagree with an amp that doesn't isolate its on-board DI output from the master volume.

Just putting that out there.

I'll show myself out

I'm right there with you-- the sound engineers I work with don't like it when you change the level of the signal you're giving them with no warning. This may be different when you're making gobs of money and melting faces worldwide, but I like to keep things as predictable as possible for the people I work with.