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Salsa's, Merangue's, & Tumbao's

#21
Originally posted by cassanova
Im trying to broaden my horizons here and learn a few of the many latino styles now. Ive heard of these 3, but I dont know what makes them what they are. Can someone please explain the differences to me please.

Some songs of each would also be very helpful this way I can have an aural example to help solidify it a bit better.

*
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Cassanova, here are some important names in merengue and salsa. If you can download some of their music or buy some of their records, you will have gone a long way toward becoming familiar with the styles.

Merengue

Juan Luis Guerra
Olga Tanon (The Queen of Merengue)
Tito Rojas
Las Chicas del Can

Merengue Hip Hop

Proyecto Uno
El General
Ilegales (meren-house)

Salsa

Celia Cruz
India
Wilie Colon
Oscar de Leon
Grupo Niche
Tito Puente (deceased)
Los Van Van

Good luck in your exploration of these styles and their variations and hybrids that seem to be proliferating. These names are some of the most highly successful, but there are many, many more performers, needless to say.
 
#22
thanks for the help everyone. Its very much appriciated.

I really needed to hear some examples so my head knew what kinda bass lines to listen for. Thanks for those artists you provided Bob.


Im also with you on the merangue's I dont like them too too much either.



Ive also seen Samba mentioned a time or two in this thread. What exactly is a samba?
 
#23
Originally posted by cassanova

Ive also seen Samba mentioned a time or two in this thread. What exactly is a samba?
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It's a 2/4 March........Brazilian style!!

It's meant to accompany the marching schools at Carnaval, but has developed into a huge number of variations - too many to mention!

The basis is the Surdo (bass drum) pattern, but combined with a huge number of percussion instruments.
 
#24
Of all the Latin music forms mentioned here, samba would be my favorite. I'm not objective, however, being as I lived in Brazil three years.

To check out some of today's top samba artists check Elsa Soares (the queen of samba) and Zeca Pacodinho, the "king." Or buy any of the many annual samba collections of new music from each year's Carnival. Or maybe you can find a collection of music from one of Rio de Janeiro's popular samba schools (clubs) such as Mangueira. I can't remember the other names, but there were several prominent ones.

I gotta say this, however, I truly believe samba is music best experienced live. I've never heard a record that quite captured the actual excitement, pulse and heat (and I do mean 'heat") of samba played live.

My all time favorite samba is "Cidade Maravilhosa" (marvelous city) which is from the early sixties. I hope you can find it in a samba collection on CD.
 
#26
I understand your predicament. Samba is the one that should be the easiest to identify. It is "percussion heavy" and sounds like a march, but not a Souza march; instead it is a Latino march. Also samba has characteristic Brazilian instruments not often heard in salsa and merengue. A notable example would be the berimbao, which has a unique sound I can't describe. It almost sounds like high pitched talking. Whistles are frequently employed in samba , too. A dead giveaway would be the language. Sambas are sung in Portuguese, not Spanish.

The samba "march" is what gives propulsion to the Carnival parades of the samba schools. They parade, dance really, in all their Carnival finery on a long road in front of thousands of revelers. Their goal is to have the best new samba song and best costumes of all the samba schools. These schools work all year long developing their music, making their costumes and dreaming of the next Carnival.

Salsa and merengue were more challenging for me to identify, even after eight years in South America. It doesn't really help much to know that merengue is generally the faster of the two. I can't appreciate merengue, but I think it is because merengue is not so a music a music for listening...it is a music for dancing.

I think salsa is more melodic, if that is the word and it probably isn't. Does this help? Gloria Estefan would be closer to salsa than merengue. Mark Anthony definitely is a "salsero." I hope someone else can chime in here and give something more concrete. If not, I'll dig out my Juan Luis Guerra CD and see if I can pin down the differences for you.

Oh, if you are listening to Spanish language radio stations, you will be hearing both forms of the music. A radio station in Miami that calls itself a salsa station even plays dance music by Cher and a lot of salsa with hip hop breaks in it!
 
#27
OK, here's my salsa/merengue quick test that will seldom fail you in deciding which style a song you are heariing is. Listen to the percussion. If it is merengue, the beat is steady, driving, unrelenting and energetic, almost bouncy or hoppy. You could stand in one place and just jump up and down and still be in the right timing. You can count a steady one-two-three-four, repeatedly and not get lost. Of course the songs have stops and starts, but for the most part, you can stay in time with that steady beat. Also the trumpets and brass have almost a staccato feel that matches the percussion.

In salsa, if you attempt to count a steady one-two-three-four, you will get lost. The pulse is way more complex. In fact, pulse is a good word, because the percussion in salsa is more pulsating. The brass is more melodic and the piano plays a prominent role, often soloing and employs typical salsa riffs (that I love, by the way.)

One other point to help you (I hope), salsa has developed two distinct branches. The traditional salsa is exemplified by Los Van Van, Ruben Blades, Celia Cruz, The Buena Vista Social Club and numerous others. The "New Salsa" is a pop derivative. Check out Marc Anthony, Son by Four (whom I actually do admire...they are more than just N'Sync salseros), even Jennifer Lopez...OK, she's a stretch. I'd call her "nueva salsa/dance."

For your purposes as a bass player attempting to increase the styles you play, you would do well to explore the traditional salsa which still has devotees in the millions and is the music that fills the salsa clubs; plus learn to play merengue because it has its ardent adherents too. Often those who dance to the one look down on those who dance to the other. If you want to lose weight, merengue dancing would do it the fastest, I believe.

As a bass player in merengue your challenge will be to keep up. In salsa, your challenge will be to get in that challenging groove or clave as it is known. When I lived in South America, musicians spoke so lovingly and reverentially of the clave, I came to believe it was something mystical and inborn...a quality extremely hard for a Yankee Gringo to capture. Indeed, I never quite have.
 
#28
Originally posted by Boplicity
In salsa, your challenge will be to get in that challenging groove or clave as it is known. When I lived in South America, musicians spoke so lovingly and reverentially of the clave, I came to believe it was something mystical and inborn...a quality extremely hard for a Yankee Gringo to capture. Indeed, I never quite have.
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This reminded me of a workshop on Latin styles I attended - at one point during the day, everybody went off with a tutor on their instrument and the bass tutor mentioned about this - he said you're not playing it wrongly, you just live in a different culture!

The annoying thing is that you see Afro Cuban bands playing this stuff and they make it look and sound effortless, whereas it is anything but, for somebody who isn't brought up with that all around them! ;)
 
#29
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


This reminded me of a workshop on Latin styles I attended - during the day, everybody went off with a tutor on their instrument and the bass tutor mentioned about this - he said you're not playing it wrongly, you just live in a different culture!

The annoying thing is that you see Afro Cuban bands playing this stuff and they make it look and sound effortless, whereas it is anything but, for somebody who isn't brought up with that all around them! ;)
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Just over a year ago, I had the good fortune/intimidating experience to perform just before Los Van Van. Juan Formell drove Bruce & Bop's point home to me with a vengance. Not only did he have an amazing feel, but he SANG while playing the stuff! Unreal...

Man, those guys are SCARY! :eek:

I wish I could have more input here Cass, but I really don't know the names of the forms. I just play what fits, or what the percussionists suggest, with my own little modifications. I think most of what I'm doing would be salsa/rock with RM&SS, and salsa with Tito Puente Jr (although it's my understanding that Tito Sr never cared for that label, and prefered to call it mambo, of course I could be wrong...).
 
#30
The annoying thing is that you see Afro Cuban bands playing this stuff and they make it look and sound effortless, whereas it is anything but, for somebody who isn't brought up with that all around them!
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Yeah, this is true for all forms of music. It's about where you're heart is I guess?

In general rock is dead simple to play right? ...but I'll bet there aren't many jazzos who can rip out a riff like Slash or Jimmy Page?

My best mate sat in for one track down at our local jazz night fairly recently... he played a blues and pulled off a damned good solo.
During the next number, back to jazz, the house guitarist attempted a bluesy solo.. it was AWEFUL, embarassingly so. Now this obviously guy knows his theory, he's a professional and what he plays is technically way beyond a simple blues... but he couldnt play a blues for love nor money.

I always remember that when I see/hear someone playing a genre that I just can't fathom... it doesnt mean I dont want to learn how they do it, it just stops me thinking I'm totally crap and getting depressed! :)

Sorry, the topic wandered a tad there :rolleyes:
 
#31
Originally posted by Gard
I wish I could have more input here Cass, but I really don't know the names of the forms. I just play what fits, or what the percussionists suggest, with my own little modifications.
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Gard, thats about what Im doing too. For now, I not going to worry much if its a Tumbao, Salsa, etc. Im just going to lay down a line that fits. I will still continue to listen to it all though and one day hopefully soon it'll sink in.
 
#32
Originally posted by Gard
[. I think most of what I'm doing would be salsa/rock with RM&SS, and salsa with Tito Puente Jr (although it's my understanding that Tito Sr never cared for that label, and prefered to call it mambo, of course I could be wrong...). [/B]
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Tito Puente, the elder, was one of the famous "mambo kings" whose orchestras ruled the notable mambo music and dance scene in New York City during the mid-1950s.

That said, for one of the best understandings of the mambo style, definitely check out Perez "Prez" Prado who is said to have been one of the most influential artists in this style. Though his most famous mambo is "Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White", his prolific orchestra made many more songs than that, even though that one song seems to have come to define the man.

By the way, Gard, I really envy your having had the opportunity to meet and play with Los Van Van and their remarkable bassist, Juan Formell.
 
#33
Originally posted by Boplicity


That said, for one of the best understandings of the mambo style, definitely check out Perez "Prez" Prado who is said to have been one of the most influential artists in this style. Though his most famous mambo is "Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White", his prolific orchestra made many more songs than that, even though that one song seems to have come to define the man.
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In the UK he is actually more famous for "Guaglione" which has been used in a number of high profile adverts in recent years.
 
#34
Originally posted by cassanova
Im just going to lay down a line that fits.
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Cass, I'm a little late with this, but here's my two cents.

Remember that what "fits" is subjective. What feels "right" is informed by your experiences (playing and listening). When I first started playing with Invalid Link Removed I listened and talked to the drummer to get ideas. I also got a couple of books from http://www.shermusic.com/ . I did ok, but my playing reflected the standard "latin" jazz that I had done before.

What really helped was getting a couple of the guys to make me compilation tapes of tunes they thought were good examples of the forms we were playing. I listened to tapes for a while, then sat down with them and talked about our songs and what kind of feel they were looking for. The tapes gave us a common reference point.

Here's part of one of our tunes that has a standard salsa feel, then changes to samba on the bridge. The salsa is pretty simple, only one chord per measure, so it's easy to hear the change on the fourth beat. It's pretty much two 8 bar phrases so I land on one again in measure 9. The samba is kinda traditional, emphasis on the third beat (or second beat if you're feeling it in 2/4), and that beat has a slight "drag" to it.
Invalid Link Removed (41 secs, 647kb, cr. Martinez, 2001)

edit: for clarity
 
#35
Joe, excellent advice: LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN.

Then, find people that KNOW the stuff and talk to them, ask for input and ideas. I have the good fortune to work with two percussionists that really know the vernacular and are always happy to help.

Those two thing together will do the trick.
 
#36
Hi!

Well I will try to help you. The book that you need to start is Lincoln Goines and Robby Ameen Afro Cuban Grooves. Buy the book not the video.:)

Salsa:
If you aks Ray Barreto he will tell you that there is not such thing. Salsa was a word that the singers used to say that they got the feel ( SABOR). The real thing is that you got, Son Montuno, Guaracha, Guaguanco, Songo, Cha Cha Cha, and many others. And the center of this music is the tumbao. The fist thing you should do is listen music as much as you can, because you need to be familiar with the clave. When you play salsa you never count, you are supposse to feel it.
There are to type of clave the rumba and the son clave in 3/2 or 2/3. (I know that JimK could explain my english is so bad :mad: )

Here is my list of the Artist that you can listen in "Salsa":

1) Ismael Rivera
2) Willie Colon & Ruben Blades ( Bassist Sal Cuevas the BEST)
3) Hector Lavoe
4) Richie Ray and Bobby Cruz
5) Ray Barreto
6) Eddie Parmieri
7) Larry Harlow
8) Los Van Van
9) Batacumbele (this group is amaizing)

In Latin Jazz
1) Dave Valentin
2) Giovanni Hidalgo
3) Tito Puente

In Merengue: (there are two type traditional and Bomba)
1) Olga Tañon (find someting form 1995 era)
2) Millie Quezada
3) Grupo Mania
4) Ashely ( Merengue Bomba)
5) Melina Leon
6) Limite 21
7) Juan Luis Guerra
8) Chi Chi Perarta

Important Bassist:
1) Sal Cuevas
2) Cachao
3) Andy Gonzalez
4) Eddie "guagua" Rivera
5) Bobby Valentin
6) Bobby Rodriguez
7) Mike Viñas
8) Carlitos del Puerto

I hope that this help you

Pa' lante
Jose Neville


Boplicity Tito Rojas plays Salsa.
 
#37
Originally posted by JoseNeville
Hi!

Well I will try to help you. The book that you need to start is Lincoln Goines and Robby Ameen Afro Cuban Grooves. Buy the book not the video.:)

Click to expand...

I disagree with this part. Like the title implies, this book is about building on top of the basic groove. It teaches how you can change up these feels, but I don't think it does a great job at giving a solid foundation. Try the book "True Cuban Bass", though I can't recall who wrote it.
 
#38
Originally posted by Pacman


I disagree with this part. Like the title implies, this book is about building on top of the basic groove. It teaches how you can change up these feels, but I don't think it does a great job at giving a solid foundation. Try the book "True Cuban Bass", though I can't recall who wrote it.
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Agreed, they are both excellent books, but to get a better "grip" on the basics, "The True Cuban Bass" is better. The author is Carlos Del Puerto, the wonderful bassist from Irakere. I need to break that one back out and go over it again! :D
 
#39
Carlos Del Puerto is one of the greatest latin bassist, he was the Irakere bassist. I don't have his book, but the advise coming from two of the serious TBrs. You should buy.
But what I try to tell if that he need to be saturate listen latin music, this is the first steap. Latin music if diferent you should have the clave inside. If you want to know what latin bassist are doing now, the Afro Cuban Groove is the book.

Listen to Marc Anthony CD that are easy to find in the states, you will know that Ruben Rodriguez and Jose Gazmey bassists, are using Sal Cuevas styles. Lincoln do a very good job, explain this techniques.

Pa'lante
Jose Neville

Lo siento mi idioma es español, se me hace un poco dificil explicarme en ingles
 
#40
Originally posted by JoseNeville
Carlos Del Puerto is one of the greatest latin bassist, he was the Irakere bassist. I don't have his book, but the advise coming from two of the serious TBrs. You should buy.
But what I try to tell if that he need to be saturate listen latin music, this is the first steap. Latin music if diferent you should have the clave inside. If you want to know what latin bassist are doing now, the Afro Cuban Groove is the book.

Listen to Marc Anthony CD that are easy to find in the states, you will know that Ruben Rodriguez and Jose Gazmey bassists, are using Sal Cuevas styles. Lincoln do a very good job, explain this techniques.

Pa'lante
Jose Neville

Lo siento mi idioma es español, se me hace un poco dificil explicarme en ingles
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Jose -

Your English is far superior to my Manglish (what I do to Spanish should be against the law! :eek: ;) ), thanks for your input!

Listening is of course essential, the more you do, the better off you are. Luckily for me, I grew up in and around New Orleans, and the "second-line" feel is nothing but EVERYONE playing the clave, so it's "in" me from that experience (think "Bo Diddley" beat, if you're not sure what second-line is). One exercise in the Goines/Ameen book that is excellent is tapping the clave with your foot while playing a basic tumbao pattern, he got it from Bobby Rodriguez I believe. I still can't do it well...:(

Some of the Marc Anthony stuff (the salsa stuff) is excellent for listening to, but his more "pop" stuff (sheesh, I can't remember album titles, sorry) isn't all that good for getting the Latin feel. The best education I've gotten is listening to a lot of Tito Puente when I got the gig with his son. Bobby Rodriguez is awesome. Of course, a healthy dose of Irakere, Batacumbele, and Los Van Van is a good idea as well.
 

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