Shortscales sound thin compared to Standard scale?

[Mr. Ray]

I'm not sure the question asked is quite what the OP wanted to know, and the discussion may have obscured this a bit. Though I'm no luthier at all, I do teach acoustics at a college level & here's my take:

1. There's a nomenclature problem here to clear up first : I assume by "fundamental" you mean fundamental in the true sense of the word. That is, for open A on a standard bass, 55Hz. Let's call this "f".

2. The overall amplitude of the fundamental will be dependent on a large number of factors, as stated in many posts already.

3. That said, all other things being equal, a shorter scale instrument tuned to the same pitch will produce a louder fundamental with respect to the overtone series. (2f, 3f, 4f, etc. up the tree.) This is because a string under higher tension will produce louder overtones (2f, 3f, 4f etc.) at the same pitch.

Don't take my word for it - record a few notes on instruments that have PU's at the same spot relative to the scale length (calculate that as a percetage) and analyze their frequencies in a program like Audition.

4. Longer scale lengths may be heard as more "ballsy" (insert favorite tone adjective here) for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that the 2d overtone (2f) is often what ends up being perceived in the lowest register through many amplification systems anyway.

Again, don't take my word for it - try running a sine wave generator through your bass rig. (Sines have no overtones) & see what you get in terms of dB/SPL on the way out.

5. Further to this, you should take all factors into account (which some posters have). Your "sound" is the bass, strings, PU placement, how you hit it, tuning, amp, position of amp in the room and interaction of your amp with the room itself. Room modes can be the kiss of death, you know.

6. Lastly and perhaps most importantly, your ears do NOT have a linear response, especially in the bass end. The perceived amount of bass you hear varies with amplitude. Look up the "Fletcher-Munson Curves" sometime for more detail than I have time to do now.

So, in a sense, the majority in this poll are quite correct - there's more fundamental (as a percent of the total o/p) in a short scale bass, not less.

Hope this helps,
GT

Long time string manufacturer Daddario has another explanation concerning "How scale length affects sound" based on industry standards.

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I think we have to be careful with certain generalizations as there seems to be many factors affecting the overall sound of a bass, scale length again is just one factor that influences the fundamental. (Oh and by the way I don't take your word for it.)

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

Pick or fingers?

This just reminds me of my first "big" gig: a birthday party at someone's house when I was a Junior in H.S. I was playing my trusty Fender Mustang short-scale, and in them days I played fingers only.

After about an hour-and-a-half, my fingers had huge blood-blisters, and I could barely play. I tried using the guitard's pick but I had never used a pick before, so massive suckage ensued.

Fortunately, this never happened again.

Fingers 98% of the time. I use flatwounds so I can endure more than I can if I used rounds.

We had lots of breaks too.

 

[WarriorJoe7]

I genuinely hope that you get a bass that sounds like you want in your head. Let us know what your final specs are and when you get it if it is what you wanted.

 

[GoesThump]

Long time string manufacturer Daddario has another explanation concerning "How scale length affects sound" based on industry standards.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I think we have to be careful with certain generalizations as there seems to be many factors affecting the overall sound of a bass, scale length again is just one factor that influences the fundamental. (Oh and by the way I don't take your word for it.)

Hi Mr Ray,

10/10 for research.

You are absolutely correct that there are many factors influencing the overall sound of the bass, and that scale length is just 1 factor that influences the fundamental. The overall tone I'll leave to the mojo folks, but the fundamental is easily calculated. The D'Addario article is incomplete because it only takes one factor (length) into account.

For anyone who's curious, an explanation follows:

The fundamental pitch of a vibrating string is influenced by *three* factors, and only three. Namely : length, tension, and mass. (If tension didn't affect it, you'd never be able to tune your bass! ) I'll call these L,T and M.

To be absolutely pedantic about it (I'm a teacher, I can't help being pedantic! ), here's how it works:

1) the fundamental vibrational mode of a string = 1/2 the wavelength of the pitch that is being produced.

2) wavelength = velocity / frequency. So, to calculate wavelength (how the heck do I make a lambda symbol on this damn keyboard?!?) you need to know frequency.

3) V is determined by the relationship of the tension/mass per unit length of string, like so:

V = square root of (T/(M/L))

(Sorry this is ugly - I don't know how to make the symbols appear in text.)

4) fundamental = V/2L, where v is velocity & L is length.

5) In sum, the mass (string gauge, etc) & the tension (tuning) need to be known to calculate the fundamental frequency, along with the length.

6) The variance in tone between shortscales and longscales (all other things being equal) actually has nothing to do with the fundamental, but rather with the overtones (integer multiples of the fundamental) and their relative balance with respect to the fundamental.

7) That said, all other things are never equal, hence the need - as Mr Ray points out - to evaluate a sound as a whole.

8) I really need to go practice more & do less math.


Best wishes,
GT

 

[GoesThump]

"GoesThump"

That was great! Thanks much appreciated.

Hey no problem - anytime.

The bass you've ordered looks positively drool-worthy. You absolutely must let us hear/see this thing when it arrives!

I'd love a 24 fret shortie myself. I switched over to shorts a few years ago when my arthritis rendered longer scales painful to play.

Now I can suck on multiple scale lengths.

GT

 

[WarriorJoe7]

When we say fundamental, we don't mean fundamental FREQUENCY (which is calculated as you say) but fundamental STRENGTH (volume compared to other harmonics) as you get in point 6. Point 6 is what we were talking about all along.

It is indeed dependent on the whole bass and many factors go into it which cannot be calculated at this time. But there are certain factors that can be pointed out that indeed do make some difference. Some of these are scale length, string gauge and tension, string composition and design, neck stiffness, body wood, fingerboard wood, neck wood, pickup placement, point at which you play the string, natural acoustic variations in different pieces of wood (which makes it a crapshoot,) and ARGUABLY (just look for certain threads) some of these as well: mass, material, and density of the bridge and/or tuners, type and thickness of finish, body and/or neck mass, overall shape, and eq voicing and pickup type (though not acoustically.) There are others which i probably missed. Hell even the strapbutton type and placement may affect the tone a very minute amount, but it's ridiculous to mention.

Perhaps the biggest one not mentioned is the fingers and technique of the person that plays a certain bass. I know my fingers in general sound MUCH more trebly than many other peoples... Perhaps the best way to demonstrate this is to play with your ring finger if you never usually do and compare it to pointer and middle finger. Given the same volume you can't tell me that the frequency spectrum is the same for fingers you use vs ones you don't (unless you are just lucky.) Which leads to another point. 2 different bassists do not have the same tone on the same instrument. While I agree it is mostly in the fingers I have heard something that will sound ridiculous (and which I am not sure if I buy) that a persons body and the amount of contact with the bass when played will make a bass sound different. Does this mean the bass will sound different if I sit down and balance it on my knee. If I gain 10 pounds will my bass sound different (and will it be because of the extra padding on my fingers, or extra padding on my gut, or both? If I am dehydrated will I sound different. Will I sound different in alaska versus florida, or at different altitudes? Never tried an A/B on these on a recording but my fingers aren't consistent enough to do this. And even if my fingers were, are my ears even sharp enough to discern the difference, and is my mind unbiased enough to not skew my opinion. Clearly a spectroscope and an actuator driven finger would have to be used to prove anything. (This is actually a setup i always wanted to do in order to test different strings.) Perhaps if I had an actuator to strike the strings I could test SOME of these.

OK so I know some of what I mention is rather absurd, but I believe for certain all the stuff in this post before I say the word "arguably." The rest is debatable but could likely be proven one way or the other with some investigative work.

Hi Mr Ray,

10/10 for research.

You are absolutely correct that there are many factors influencing the overall sound of the bass, and that scale length is just 1 factor that influences the fundamental. The overall tone I'll leave to the mojo folks, but the fundamental is easily calculated. The D'Addario article is incomplete because it only takes one factor (length) into account.

For anyone who's curious, an explanation follows:

The fundamental pitch of a vibrating string is influenced by *three* factors, and only three. Namely : length, tension, and mass. (If tension didn't affect it, you'd never be able to tune your bass! ) I'll call these L,T and M.

To be absolutely pedantic about it (I'm a teacher, I can't help being pedantic! ), here's how it works:

1) the fundamental vibrational mode of a string = 1/2 the wavelength of the pitch that is being produced.

2) wavelength = velocity / frequency. So, to calculate wavelength (how the heck do I make a lambda symbol on this damn keyboard?!?) you need to know frequency.

3) V is determined by the relationship of the tension/mass per unit length of string, like so:

V = square root of (T/(M/L))

(Sorry this is ugly - I don't know how to make the symbols appear in text.)

4) fundamental = V/2L, where v is velocity & L is length.

5) In sum, the mass (string gauge, etc) & the tension (tuning) need to be known to calculate the fundamental frequency, along with the length.

6) The variance in tone between shortscales and longscales (all other things being equal) actually has nothing to do with the fundamental, but rather with the overtones (integer multiples of the fundamental) and their relative balance with respect to the fundamental.

7) That said, all other things are never equal, hence the need - as Mr Ray points out - to evaluate a sound as a whole.

8) I really need to go practice more & do less math.


Best wishes,
GT

 

[GoesThump]

2 different bassists do not have the same tone on the same instrument. While I agree it is mostly in the fingers I have heard something that will sound ridiculous (and which I am not sure if I buy) that a persons body and the amount of contact with the bass when played will make a bass sound different. Does this mean the bass will sound different if I sit down and balance it on my knee. Never tried an A/B on a recording but my fingers aren't consistent enough to do this. Perhaps if I had an actuator to strike the strings I could test this.

Hi,

Exactly so - that is why I was making it clear I was only talking about calculating fundamental pitch, (for those curious about such) and the "all other things being equal" (which they never are!) disclaimer.

I agree 100% on the effect of fingers. Note the constant threads on Geddy Lee's tone (Ric/Wal/Jazz/Steinberger/whatever). A lot of why Geddy sounds the way he does is simply how he hits the bass.

(Depressingly, it means I'll always sound a certain way too! )

I never considered the body damping before, but if the body is vibrating, it is perfectly logical to assume it would have a difference.

Perhaps this is why I'm "thumpy-er" now - I have more beer gut to contact the instrument than when I was 15.

GT

 

[WarriorJoe7]

Hi,

Exactly so - that is why I was making it clear I was only talking about calculating fundamental pitch, (for those curious about such) and the "all other things being equal" (which they never are!) disclaimer.

I agree 100% on the effect of fingers. Note the constant threads on Geddy Lee's tone (Ric/Wal/Jazz/Steinberger/whatever). A lot of why Geddy sounds the way he does is simply how he hits the bass.

(Depressingly, it means I'll always sound a certain way too! )

I never considered the body damping before, but if the body is vibrating, it is perfectly logical to assume it would have a difference.

Perhaps this is why I'm "thumpy-er" now - I have more beer gut to contact the instrument than when I was 15.

GT

I wouldn't be surprised if the extra padding on your fingers makes more of a difference than the padding on your gut, if either of them even make a discernable difference. But I have taken us slightly off topic... Anyways OP, most of the stuff that many believe to make a difference in the tone has been discussed from different perspectives.

While I agree that woods are important, because of natural acoustic variations in wood, wood selection is somewhat of a crapshoot. All I can say is this about warmoths descriptions: The tone-o-meter is a generalization for different species. A mahogany body is LIKELY going to sound warmer than an ash one but i am sure there are peices of both that are exceptions. Whether you get one of those peices or not is a matter of chance.

The things that are consistent that you should pay attention to are (and not in this order) scale, neck stiffness, string gauge tension composition and brand, pickup placement, and wood selection even though it is a crapshoot.

Most of the rest of it is either not easily changebale, not easily discernable, or is debatable. The only thing you can change easily about your playing is where you strike the string. if you play by the bridge and then play over the end of the neck and then play over the 12th fret you will hear HUGE differences in the acoustic and amplified sound of the bass. I am guessing that this is somewhat similiar to a difference in pickup placement. I hope to prove this later.

 

[Mr. Ray]

OK all this scientific info can be important, but to put all this in perspective..when you are on stage whatever bass you have, just crank up the volume of the bass, lay into it with the drummer and get the crowd dancing.

 

[Nighthawk551]

Ever since I traded my P for a Mustang, I've noticed the 'Stang has a better P tone than the P! The shortscale rumbles.

 

[mongo2]

Ever since I traded my P for a Mustang, I've noticed the 'Stang has a better P tone than the P! The shortscale rumbles.

Me too...my Mustang RI has replaced my '73 P.

 

[mkrtu9]

That must be priceless and I am sure you make a face like this when he take it from you.

That I do. Jammed it out today though and he didn't say a word except "I don't wanna put it up" haha, back in my stand

 

[ehque]

If anything, they'd be thicker, with more fundamental, muddier, as the strings are looser, floppier.

Longer the scale, tighter the strings, more definition, brightness, etc.

Of course, basses are designed around this, leaving long scales with huge low end, sometimes, a lot of it is in the build.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[Root 5]

A 30" scale bass will not have as full a sound as one that has a 34" or 35" scale. It's just a simple fact that a longer string will have more fundamental; more focused tone - this is why a 9 foot grand piano always sounds better than a 5' 3" baby grand piano.

This isn't to say a 30" scale bass doesn't sound good & aren't useful - just different. I have a 30" scale passive bass & I love it. With active electronics you can compensate for the milder tone if it concerns you.

 

[becker4567]

Funny, I have the same one w/D'addario chromes. Agree 100% with you - wonderful little bass.

Do you have a picture of yours w/the PU cover on?

GT

Not yet, but I'll take one and send it to you!

 

[mongo2]

A 30" scale bass will not have as full a sound as one that has a 34" or 35" scale. It's just a simple fact that a longer string will have more fundamental; more focused tone - this is why a 9 foot grand piano always sounds better than a 5' 3" baby grand piano.

You don't think the simple fact that it's a bigger piano with a larger soundboard, and most likely a better designed an better made piano has anything at all to do with it?

 

[WarriorJoe7]

Do yourself a favor and record your shortscale and compare it to a regular scale bass (I already have.) While there are exceptions, most of the time the short scale will be thicker with more fundamental. Be sure tou use the same type of strings on them.

A 30" scale bass will not have as full a sound as one that has a 34" or 35" scale. It's just a simple fact that a longer string will have more fundamental; more focused tone - this is why a 9 foot grand piano always sounds better than a 5' 3" baby grand piano.

This isn't to say a 30" scale bass doesn't sound good & aren't useful - just different. I have a 30" scale passive bass & I love it. With active electronics you can compensate for the milder tone if it concerns you.

 

[mongo2]

Do yourself a favor and record your shortscale and compare it to a regular scale bass (I already have.) While there are exceptions, most of the time the short scale will be thicker with more fundamental. Be sure tou use the same type of strings on them.

I've found that I have to boost the bass a bit more using the "Tone Balance" setting on my AMP BH-420 when I use a 34" scale compared to when I use a 30" scale, but they both can be made to sound functionally the same so for all practical purposes it's a wash.

What I really like about my shortscales is that they sound so much more even than my longscales. The added comfort factor in both easier playability and lower weight is just gravy.

 

[Zoidberg523]

I'm not much on science, but I'd have to say that the reason that your bass sounded thin was because it was outside. I played an outdoor gig a short time ago, and my ESP D-5 sounded so thin that at times I couldn't hear it (and neither could anyone else), but then the cops showed up, and apparently, my bass was rattling houses 2 blocks over...