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Double Bass Sibelius violin concerto
- Thread starter Snufkin
- Start date
Third movement. What looks like straight-forward banging out of the rhythm by one bass can be a nightmare. You can choose to follow the conductor or play it in exactly accurate rhythm. You can't win. 
http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/aa/IMSLP48791-PMLP10691-Sibelius-Op047.Bass.pdf
http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/aa/IMSLP48791-PMLP10691-Sibelius-Op047.Bass.pdf
In the opening and passage for one bass that neilG quotes above be prepared to initially ditch the printed bowing pattern and play it "as it comes", bouncing the bow near its balance point. This will allow for the inevitable rubato. Later, as you get used to the ebb and flow, you can experiment with bouncing further out, gradually striking the string more and trying the printed bowing to best get the character of the music (somewhat like the sound of of a side drum without its snare?).
At rehearsal figures 2 and after 8 note that the change from 3/4 to 6/8 continues the same 8th note speed. Until you are used to this change of pulse they are uncomfortable moments. Overall the movement requires concentration on counting - its easy to get lost if you are nervous!!
Oh, and find it on Youtube!!
DP
At rehearsal figures 2 and after 8 note that the change from 3/4 to 6/8 continues the same 8th note speed. Until you are used to this change of pulse they are uncomfortable moments. Overall the movement requires concentration on counting - its easy to get lost if you are nervous!!
Oh, and find it on Youtube!!
DP
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The third movement is the quintessential bad ass bass piece. Time to drown out the entire ensemble. Lock in the groove and ignore the conductor.
Starting rehearsals with this in two weeks. Looks like fun. Tricky fun.
Maybe I should not of looked at the score
Maybe I should not of looked at the score
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Played this so many times. I predict that you will quickly re-evaluate the printed bowing.
I played this on my very first concert as principal. The third movement was terrifying, and a horrid chore to keep my section together. I had good players behind me but they weren't all that familiar with the piece, so I had to bridge the conductor, soloist, and section.
My eyes must have been wide as dinner plates during the performance. The soloist had kind words for me after - I was a little shocked that he'd noticed me all the way over there, but he seemed earnest, so apparently it went okay.
My eyes must have been wide as dinner plates during the performance. The soloist had kind words for me after - I was a little shocked that he'd noticed me all the way over there, but he seemed earnest, so apparently it went okay.
Interesting the variations out there on how to bow the 3rd allegro movement bass.
Lorraine Campet here at appears to bow with the cellos - up, down down - up, down down up.
This video of Hilary Hahn (and Campet) displays her brilliance with movement 3 at about 28.46.
Hilary Hahn - Wow.
The NY Phil bass section written part shows down, up down, then up, down up as with cellos, on the digital records.
Perhaps whatever our cello section chooses to do is what we do. Or not?
Bounce the bow, work with what we hear (tempo, push and pull) with the soloist.
Does it matter if a bassist who plays underhand bow chooses different bowing to the cello and violin section?
Lorraine Campet here at appears to bow with the cellos - up, down down - up, down down up.
This video of Hilary Hahn (and Campet) displays her brilliance with movement 3 at about 28.46.
Hilary Hahn - Wow.
The NY Phil bass section written part shows down, up down, then up, down up as with cellos, on the digital records.
Perhaps whatever our cello section chooses to do is what we do. Or not?
Bounce the bow, work with what we hear (tempo, push and pull) with the soloist.
Does it matter if a bassist who plays underhand bow chooses different bowing to the cello and violin section?
The written bowing works if you can pull it off. Both times I've played it, I started down and took the rest as it came. Bear in mind that the timpani has the opposite pattern to the bass part.
No.
Every time I've played it I've simply played it as it comes. You have more control that way. If the other strings playing the same rhythm did that too it would make this passage so much easier.
I think there are two sounds that you can produce. As-it-comes shallower bouncing or scooping in the comfort zone between mid-bow and balance point produces a thicker, warmer sound that is easier to control. The printed up-down-down bowing is better produced further out, half way or more, and can be a more vertical struck bounce producing a sound that is lighter and more percussive, possibly a better fit stylistically with the tympani and other strings. Which do you think is more appropriate?
Frankly, I don't think it matters. With everything else that's going on, I doubt anyone but you will hear the difference. My go-to technique (German bow) for this passage has been a short, articulated, on the string stroke. Sometimes I'll try it bouncing, but when the rhythm starts to fall apart, as it often does in this passage, you need more control to keep the little people in line. I've had conductors ask for more than pp as the dynamic, too.
What a piece.
Here is Hilary Hahn with her thoughts on playing it, not a masterclass but 5:46 in length.
Interesting she often smiles and communicates physically in her performances.
…and she will be playing this with our local symphony January 2023.
Here is Hilary Hahn with her thoughts on playing it, not a masterclass but 5:46 in length.
Interesting she often smiles and communicates physically in her performances.
…and she will be playing this with our local symphony January 2023.
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I am hoping to come up to see her play it. I like her work and I love that concerto. Many years ago I heard her play the first Prokofiev violin concerto in Boston, and the performance was super uncomfortable. It felt like the conductor was not listening to the soloist; the tension was very palpable and the product was not great. Hilary did her best, but the orchestra was not being directed to go with her.
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Funny how certain repertoire "trends." Our community orchestra has this programmed in late October. And yes, I agree; the printed bowing feels "back-asswards" to me. Agree also with how tricky the counting is. We're gonna need to be on our game.
MJT0229: very interested about your observation. The Prokofiev is in the BSO bloodstream and there was much fanfare about ms. Hahn's relationship with the orchestra at that time:
I can’t decide how to count the movement III 3/4 to 6/8 sections (rehearsal 2)
1+2+3+ then 123,123 ? Or 1+2+3+ all the way?
Any suggestions?
Maybe I’ll memorize it and not count at all. Lol.
When we do the 6/8 syncopated bit 5 bars after rehearsal 2 the cello and others are playing the musical fun stuff.
Below is the NY Phil marked bass section and below this the Phil cello section bowing.
