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Double Bass Simandl Plus
- Thread starter PeachinRegalia
- Start date
There have been discussions about this before - do a search and I'm sure you will find people who have said they have they use it..?
Listen to the two-part interview with Dr. Mark Morton on Contrabass Conversations:
Episode 114: Invalid Link Removed
Episode 117: Invalid Link Removed
Episode 114: Invalid Link Removed
Episode 117: Invalid Link Removed
Go to ASODB.com and download the info. The site is not quite up to date because Mark has been VERY busy at TTU and the recent ISB convention but the info on Simandl Plus is available for a free download! Free is always good! Including one of my duets and a solo.
Tom Gale
Tom Gale
That is a real good one! Great explanations and actually what a lot of us end up doing anyway.
Does Hans Roelofson (sp?) use Simandl Plus? Or is his four-finger technique an indepedent/personal sort of thing?
Yeah, I think Simandl Plus refers to what most of us do anyways- traditional Simandl technique, but when the music demands it, use extended techniques (4-fingers per position, thumb position below the octave harmonic, etc). That's my understanding, but if Simandl Plus is something else please correct me.
I've read the info on the website. It's not just somebody taking credit for and defining what many of us do already: there is some philosophy to it and there are some "rules", to wit:
"— It usually works well with lyrical playing in thumb position to use the second finger (or the
first) for every note."
That's my favorite.
"— It usually works well with lyrical playing in thumb position to use the second finger (or the
first) for every note."
That's my favorite.
Does anyone know a NYC/LI guy who knows and teaches this technique?
Also, I was wondering who you classical cats would recommend for intense German bow study....
Also, I was wondering who you classical cats would recommend for intense German bow study....
I think it seems to be very a methodical way to get to it, rather than plug away for years and catch it as you need it.
We/I should replace "what most of us do" with "what most of us figure out after years of playing".
I like that it is built around Simandl and the existing methods rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.
A few things I think are important to keep in mind:
For non-classical players it is always good to remember you can take a lot more chances with fingering on music you know inside and out, and certain things like holding a position may be a safer bet when you need "turn on dime" like you do often in an improvising ensemble.
On the other hand if a complex idea hits you fully-formed in the moment, you will need the technique and fingering options to carry it out.
Certain extended left hand fingering ideas might hold up for you better arco than with a full on jazz pizzicato - it doesn't mean you shouldn't learn or use them, just listen to you body and try to avoid strain.
I find a low thumb position to be more stable for vigorous pizzicato than either pivots or four finger, but I end up using all three as the music/idea demands it.
Finally, bass guitar technique just doesn't work on double bass. Neither Tom Gale or Dr. Morton are giving bass guitarists get "Get out of jail Free" cards. If the standard three finger left hand technique "isn't comfortable for you" you just need to practice more and be serious about the double bass.
Damon,
You may not have got that I was being facetious. Simandl Plus may be methodical but "rules" like the one quoted take bass pedagogy back to the dark ages. I also like the "rule" about "money notes". As I think you have suggested, taken as a whole, there's nothing really innovative there.
Your last sentence is worth repeating:
"f the standard three finger left hand technique "isn't comfortable for you" you just need to practice more and be serious about the double bass."
You may not have got that I was being facetious. Simandl Plus may be methodical but "rules" like the one quoted take bass pedagogy back to the dark ages. I also like the "rule" about "money notes". As I think you have suggested, taken as a whole, there's nothing really innovative there.
Your last sentence is worth repeating:
"f the standard three finger left hand technique "isn't comfortable for you" you just need to practice more and be serious about the double bass."
Yeah, I'm having at look at Simandl Plus now. Hmmmm... I just don't see how it's at all innovative or helpful. Like others have said, Simandl players work these things out by themselves, and a few points have been taught in Rabbath/Vance books for decades.
Writing it all down and making it methodical seems to make these things just far more confusing to the player, and would no doubt slow their learning.
I might just need to read more, but it doesn't seem to address the fundamental issues of Simandl fingerboard 'geography' - I'm assuming the Plus method still uses the 1,000,000,000+ Simandl positions as a basis.
Writing it all down and making it methodical seems to make these things just far more confusing to the player, and would no doubt slow their learning.
I might just need to read more, but it doesn't seem to address the fundamental issues of Simandl fingerboard 'geography' - I'm assuming the Plus method still uses the 1,000,000,000+ Simandl positions as a basis.
As noted, I'm not a big fan of the concept, but at least you have all the ideas in one place so you don't have to reference Rabbath, Vance and Simandl separately. And don't forget that Fred Zimmerman also taught extended positions as you can see in many of his edited editions of music and etudes.
As I have said before the biggest value of Simandl is the music itself - those exercises get you into shape like nothing else. I find a lot of value in using the other fingering systems with the Simandl etudes and exercises.
The blocky-ness of them creates a hard cut between "playing" and "practicing". You are working while you play them, but what you can "play" after them is well worth it.
The more musical methods just don't get the job done as well and in the end none of them are as musical as Bach, Vivaldi, Faure or any of my other favorite pieces to to play.
My general feeling about those who deride Simandl is that they don't usually know the difference between work and play.
The blocky-ness of them creates a hard cut between "playing" and "practicing". You are working while you play them, but what you can "play" after them is well worth it.
The more musical methods just don't get the job done as well and in the end none of them are as musical as Bach, Vivaldi, Faure or any of my other favorite pieces to to play.
My general feeling about those who deride Simandl is that they don't usually know the difference between work and play.
^Don't get me wrong, I love Simandl and its thoroughness. But I guess I'm pointing out the Simandl positions and from a pedagogical point of view, especially for beginners.
I studied Simandl with several teachers and have taught out of it for years and half and first are the only two positions that have ever been called by name by my teachers or I.
After that mechanics of the whole thing become clear and as Dr. Morton points out in the podcast, most of us just think in terms of what group of notes you have in any given position, regardless of what method we are grounded in.
After that mechanics of the whole thing become clear and as Dr. Morton points out in the podcast, most of us just think in terms of what group of notes you have in any given position, regardless of what method we are grounded in.
