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Solid State vs Tube Watts: Need Help

#21
eff-clef, originally I was looking at the SVT-2Pro or a Mesa 400+, but since then I found I leaning more towards a Fender 300 Pro. I would like to check out a Peavey VB-3 since it is the same amount of watts in 1/2 the weight

I feel that the SVT and the Mesa have very distinct tones. Not that that's a bad thing, but I like the fact that the Fender is more transparent...
 
#22
billfitzmaurice said:
Because tubes naturally compress the signal. You can duplicate that effect with a good compressor. But that's a PITA unless you have a rack system.
Click to expand...

And here we go. All you have to do to make a SS amp as loud as a tube amp is use a compressor? Thats sillly. All a compressor does is raise the average level. It performs gain reduction based on threshold. Below which nothing at all happens. So you level out some peaks, raise your average level and then it sounds like toobz?
In theory this might be workable, but years of amp makers experiments with VCA's have yet to replicate what a tube amp feels like.
There is also that poorly adjusted compressor-limiter can raise not just the average level, but the noise floor as well.

Still, without funny voodoo compressor tricks, SS amps need to resort to 1000 watts to carry the day. Tube amps top out at 300 watts because 300 watts of tube is pretty brutally loud. Brutally heavy too! I am sure I am not the only tube afficianado who is tired of how heavy their amps are.
 
#24
The Traynor YBA-200 is pretty light too, around 40 lbs, and is pretty cheap, I paid around $400 used for mine. I like it a lot.

T.A.P Bass said:
eff-clef, originally I was looking at the SVT-2Pro or a Mesa 400+, but since then I found I leaning more towards a Fender 300 Pro. I would like to check out a Peavey VB-3 since it is the same amount of watts in 1/2 the weight

I feel that the SVT and the Mesa have very distinct tones. Not that that's a bad thing, but I like the fact that the Fender is more transparent...
Click to expand...
 
#25
I think someone brought it up earlier in this thread, in which case you can see this as a confirmation.

A watt is a watt. How that watt is turned into sound, is dependent of the used speakers. Period. Tube-watt's aren't 'louder' than solid watt's, they are the same thing.
What does make a difference, is how many watts you are using. One of the main features of a tube amp, is that it sounds so nice when brought to overdrive (a.k.a. clipping). A clipped signal with the same peak value as a non-clipped signal, will have a higher AVERAGE VALUE. This means more average power will be brought to the speakers, meaning it will be louder.
In general, people avoid clipping SS-amps because, well, it sounds nasty in most cases. But how about this: turn your amp up all the way, then use a distortion pedal. With a bit of tweaking of the volume to prevent the amp itself from clipping, you'll find it goes pretty loud.

This is why transistor amps need more wattage than tubes, because people like to have them sound clean.
If you want a transistor amp to go as loud as a 300W tube amp, yet still sound clean, look into the 450W range. If you don't want it to sound clean, the 350W should do the job if you use a pedal.


My qualification for this answer?
I've been studying electronics for the past 6 years and continue to do so, while working closely with companies in the professional world. I've made a few audio amplifiers myself (from scratch, not a building kit like some people tend to suggest) and I am considering to do a class-D amplifier soon.
 
#27
T.A.P Bass said:
That's the thing Growler, and I may be getting greedy, but I feel like my amp head is lacking. On it's own, it sounds great. But with the full band playing, it's more like I'm felt and not fully heard, especially when we play out.

I've gone and tweaked and tweaked to no avail.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that you aren't heard in the audience, or that you can't hear yourself?

I say this because in my experience I can sometimes hear big Ampeg multi-10 cabs better further away than where I'd stand on a small club stage or in a small rehearsal room.
 
#28
What the OP poster is talking about is why do solid state watt ratings and tube amp watt ratings not compare well. I predicted that folks would smugly chime in with "a watt is a watt" and I was vindicated.
On one of the numerous other "tube watt" thread it was pointed out that what we often get quoted for SS amp specs is wildy er..distorted. Solid state amps generally have higher peak instantaneous output. Marketing types caught wind of this and ran with it. So you see amps specced for 400 watts, 800 watts etc in scenarios that do not reflect what a bassplayer ordinarliy would want to do with a bass amp.
Now tube bass amps excell at having a higher average output level for a given watt rating. Where they dont look as good on paper is noise performance and the above mentioned peak output. Of course you can design an amp to behave atypically for a tube amp and have higher peak output (the Mesa tube heads seem to do this) or to have better average output (Some GK heads).
Or you can continue to repeat exactly what we have all said in every other "tube watts" thread.

PS. I really want to believe you tube watts haters. I really do. You think I like draggin a 60lb bass head around? I broke my thumb with it once! But damn if this head didnt solve my volume problems forever.
 
#29
JimmyM said:
oh shoot...i forgot you have a 350h. the light on it actually is a clip light. but still, it should be flickering at your highest peaks.

actually, i think the best way to set the gain is to ignore the light completely and use your ears. turn it up till you hear distortion, then back off it until it goes away.
Click to expand...

When I had my 350H, the clip light came on with virtually every note I played. I never had a problem being loud enough.
 
#30
Tube vs SS. The ultimate battle. FIGHT!

Erm, I won't pretend to know any of the science behind it because I don't. All I know is that to my ears, tubes sound lush and transistors don't. That said I currently have an SVT 3 Pro but that's because I can't be bothered carrying around a heavy tube head at my old age. To the OP - I used to have an SVT 2 Pro, that was an awesome amp. Plug that into an 8x10 and you can demolish buildings. If I had lots of money and a back that worked properly then I'd get another one in a heartbeat.
 
#31
T.A.P Bass said:
That's the thing Growler, and I may be getting greedy, but I feel like my amp head is lacking. On it's own, it sounds great. But with the full band playing, it's more like I'm felt and not fully heard, especially when we play out.

I've gone and tweaked and tweaked to no avail.
Click to expand...

I've got a hunch there might be scoop involved in this story. If you have lots of lows and no mids, this "only feeleable" effect might occur and you can turn up all you want without being clearly audible. A mistake I made myself in the past.

You might try and equalize your gear somewhat more directed toward the mids. Boost your low mids (150-300 hz) or better, cut your lows a slight bit. mid- and higher mid frequencies can or cannot be great for making your sound better in a mix imo. Depends on what sound you're after.

edit: also, try rehearsing without the BDDI... Might help a bit.
 
#32
Munjibunga said:
The formula for power (watts) is P=IE, or power (watts) equals current (amps) times voltage (volts). I don't see anything about tubes or transistors in that formula.
Click to expand...

Jup, the point isn't the formula, the point is the assumption that a 300W SS head really puts out 300W.
An overdriven tube amp can put out more watts than it was originally rated. A SS amp sounds very ugly when it's clipping hard.

Clip leds are built quite differently. Whereas a Glockenklang clip led flashes at the lightest indication of something that might not have been 100 percent "clean", other leds flash much later. So the led gives hints that something is happening, but not how much is happening. That's why the Glockenklang clip led might flash often without sounding much different.
 
#34
Calaverasgrande said:
What the OP poster is talking about is why do solid state watt ratings and tube amp watt ratings not compare well. I predicted that folks would smugly chime in with "a watt is a watt" and I was vindicated.
On one of the numerous other "tube watt" thread it was pointed out that what we often get quoted for SS amp specs is wildy er..distorted. Solid state amps generally have higher peak instantaneous output. Marketing types caught wind of this and ran with it. So you see amps specced for 400 watts, 800 watts etc in scenarios that do not reflect what a bassplayer ordinarliy would want to do with a bass amp.
Now tube bass amps excell at having a higher average output level for a given watt rating. Where they dont look as good on paper is noise performance and the above mentioned peak output. Of course you can design an amp to behave atypically for a tube amp and have higher peak output (the Mesa tube heads seem to do this) or to have better average output (Some GK heads).
Or you can continue to repeat exactly what we have all said in every other "tube watts" thread.

PS. I really want to believe you tube watts haters. I really do. You think I like draggin a 60lb bass head around? I broke my thumb with it once! But damn if this head didnt solve my volume problems forever.
Click to expand...

There is also the difference between soft clipping and hard clipping.

When we are driving a tube amp into clipping, it still sounds good, with a SS amp we tend to try and avoid that. And considering it's an exponential relationship between power and volume, to get a few extra dB of headroom with a SS amp, to get to the same volume as a tube amp, but without clipping, you need to really up the power, (well, double the power to get ~3dB increase, all other things being constant, or 10x the power to double the volume).

There is no "magic" there is no "tube watts" and "SS watts", watts are watts and that is all there is to that part of the argument! The difference is how the amplification process works, not in the power used.

(and this is from someone who lugs about a ~100lb tube amp ;) )
 
#38
Ragnor said:
I think someone brought it up earlier in this thread, in which case you can see this as a confirmation.

A watt is a watt. How that watt is turned into sound, is dependent of the used speakers. Period. Tube-watt's aren't 'louder' than solid watt's, they are the same thing.
What does make a difference, is how many watts you are using. One of the main features of a tube amp, is that it sounds so nice when brought to overdrive (a.k.a. clipping). A clipped signal with the same peak value as a non-clipped signal, will have a higher AVERAGE VALUE. This means more average power will be brought to the speakers, meaning it will be louder.
In general, people avoid clipping SS-amps because, well, it sounds nasty in most cases. But how about this: turn your amp up all the way, then use a distortion pedal. With a bit of tweaking of the volume to prevent the amp itself from clipping, you'll find it goes pretty loud.

This is why transistor amps need more wattage than tubes, because people like to have them sound clean.
If you want a transistor amp to go as loud as a 300W tube amp, yet still sound clean, look into the 450W range. If you don't want it to sound clean, the 350W should do the job if you use a pedal.


My qualification for this answer?
I've been studying electronics for the past 6 years and continue to do so, while working closely with companies in the professional world. I've made a few audio amplifiers myself (from scratch, not a building kit like some people tend to suggest) and I am considering to do a class-D amplifier soon.
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^like Ragnor explained

Subjectively, there is a perceived difference. there are a number of plausible reasons for this, you may or may not agree with them, but they are plausible

1) tube amps have much higher distortion with rising level, unlike many SS amps which rise more gradually. This is not true in general, but it is probably a decent rule of thumb. We know higher distortion results in a louder perceived sound, all else being equal.

2) tube amps have a tendency to clip more gracefully. While distortion may rise appreciably, tube amps with moderate levels of feedback tend to have a "soft clip" whereas SS amp's clipping is usually quite hard and disconcerting.
This is just to say that it sometimes isn't very noticeable, unlike a SS amp clipping.
 
#40
T.A.P Bass said:
That's the thing Growler, and I may be getting greedy, but I feel like my amp head is lacking. On it's own, it sounds great. But with the full band playing, it's more like I'm felt and not fully heard, especially when we play out.

I've gone and tweaked and tweaked to no avail.
Click to expand...

I feel like there may be a couple of problems. I feel the BDDI is a mids killer ... I would personally remove it from the chain and see if it makes a difference. Also your cab, it doesn't do the 4x10HLF thing and it doesn't do the 8x10E thing either, I think Ampeg tried to get it to do the best of both worlds and failed at getting the best of either. If you want to be heard not felt use the watts you have to fill the sonic gap between the low E on a guitar and the kick drum of the kit and you will be using your watts MUCH more effectively. Low notes take a lot more power to produce, if you want to actually hear a low B you are going to need a lot more power than even a 300 watt tube amp can provide ... Look into a pre/power rack IMO. I like old school tones, and I think the 8x10 rocks, the Tech 21 VT bass pedal rocks, P basses are good for the job and tubes rock ... But that doesn't mean this gear would be it's weight in turds if you are trying to have a '70's through '90's hi-fi or modern tone. All the best in getting what you want out of your rig. Cheers.
 

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