Song key and modes (Heard it through the grapevine)

[CaptainTuna]

Hey everyone,
I'm sorry for bringing up another "keys and modes" thread, but after searching for other threads I still have doubts about this:

I was playing Heard it Through the Grapevine (by Marvin Gaye) and noticed it started with a Eb and had both a 3rd minor and a major 6th (3rd and 6th of the Eb). The first thing I though is : "It must be a Dorian/Doric mode", and this led me to think that the song was in C# major, since the Dorian is the second relative to that major scale.

I searched on the internet and I found a different answer though: the song is in Eb major (or so says google). I can't really understand why and I'm kind of frustrated, but since I started studying modes not too long ago it is very likely that I'm missing something here.

Thank you in advance!

EDIT : "Massive" typo, I meant Eb, not Bb

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Hey everyone,
I'm sorry for bringing up another "keys and modes" thread, but after searching for other threads I still have doubts about this:

I was playing Heard it Through the Grapevine (by Marvin Gaye) and noticed it started with a Bb and had both a 3rd minor and a major 6th (3rd and 6th of the Bb). The first thing I though is : "It must be a Dorian/Doric mode", and this led me to think that the song was in C# major, since the Dorian is the second relative to that major scale.

I searched on the internet and I found a different answer though: the song is in Bb major (or so says google). I can't really understand why and I'm kind of frustrated, but since I started studying modes not too long ago it is very likely that I'm missing something here.

Thank you in advance!

From your provided link, I think the song is in Ebm
(starts with Eb5-power chord/no 3rd)
Other chords: Bb7, Ab7, and Cm7.

 

[CaptainTuna]

From your provided link, I think the song is in Ebm
(starts with Eb5-power chord/no 3rd)
Other chords: Bb7, Ab7, and Cm7.

Sorry, I wrote Bb for some reason but I actually meant Eb, just corrected it now.

Still I don't understand a few things, maybe because I've got the concept of "key" unclear. Actually, just one thing: that major sixth, the C. If it was really Ebm wouldn't there be a B instead of a C?

 

[elgecko]

If you're having issues understanding keys, it's best to forget about modes till you get that concept down!

 

[MalcolmAmos]

There are two ways of making modes. One where you walk the key and the notes stay the same and then another where the key stays the same and the notes change.

That 6 thing. Parallel modes - where the key stays the same and the notes change. Dorian is R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7.

Until you start getting lead breaks leave modes alone. If you are doing lead breaks look up Parallel modes, it's much easier to use Parallel in songs. Of course IMHO.

 

[CaptainTuna]

Ok I think my problem here is that I'm talking about keys and thinking about key signatures. I meant that saying Ebm = 6 sharps or 6 flats thus implying a C# and a natural B, and no C which is the major sixth.

I think my problem at this point is language. In italian we speak of tonality, and I though it was the same as key, but I was in fact talking about key signature in this case and that's why I couldn't understand why it was Ebm.

I've foung a line on wikipedia which explains my thought excactly:

The Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 538 by Bach has no key signature, leading it to be called the Dorian, but it is still in D minor; the B♭s that occur in the piece are written with accidentals.

 

[LG TPAFL]

Old thread but I'm wondering just that. Why is the C so prominent in this song in Ebm key? I googled Heard it Through the Grapevine dorian and landed here.....

 

[BassyBill]

In tunes with a Dorian vibe (Eb Dorian in your example), it’s very common to find the major IV chord (Ab in this case), hence the C note. Don’t get confused into thinking the key is C#, just because the C# major scale is the corresponding Ionic mode. Keys and modes are convenient rather than correct or definitive. The best key to adopt here is Ebm.

 

[LG TPAFL]

Thanks Bill. I've just been diving a little more into the modes lately. When I realized that C is the major 6th of Eb, the Dorian bell went off in my head. So Ebm using the notes of C# only difference (from Ebm) being that C. That major 6th C is used in very strong parts of the lyrics.....You could have TOLD me yourself....great tune-both versions.

 

[Snarf]

Grapevine's an interesting tune. It's doing the Dorian thing in the intro, which gets repeated a few times in the song. The chords being used are Ebm, Fm, and Gb.

Then it fights to become tonal, but really doesn't. We hear an Ebm and a Bb chord, which says I and V, but it goes to Ab, sabotaging the minor key.

After that, it switches to Eb major for the chorus. That's kicked off by the Cm chord. But the cool thing is that instead of a normal Ab for the IV chord, it's Ab7. That's giving it a blues undercurrent. The thing about chords is that there is plenty of leeway for changing chord qualities without changing their function much if at all.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The chords being used are Ebm, Fm, and Gb.

Maybe, we are listening to two different songs.

Then it fights to become tonal, but really doesn't.

I think I'm lost.

 

[LG TPAFL]

Right. Marvin’s version. Ebm Ab Bb and then that Cm (took me by SURPRISE..you could have told ME…for the other GUY, etc.). I guess the Cm is just a borrowed chord from Eb.

 

[Snarf]

Maybe, we are listening to two different songs.



I think I'm lost.

View attachment 5395747

I don't put too much faith into Real Book charts, lots of mistakes in those. But if you take the organ part and put thirds into those voicings, you get the chords I mentioned, and it's a Dorian vibe all the way. The fight for tonality happens when Bb7 comes in during the verse, but it doesn't resolve as expected. Now, I didn't immediately hear a b7 on the Eb after Cm and Ab7. I'm not in front of a piano now but I'll check that out later.

 

[SteveCS]

Still I don't understand a few things, maybe because I've got the concept of "key" unclear. Actually, just one thing: that major sixth, the C. If it was really Ebm wouldn't there be a B instead of a C?

Rather than getting bogged down in modes and scales, just think of both minor and major 6ths and 7ths as diatonic in the minor key. So, in the key of Ebm the 7th can be D or Db, and the 6th can be C or Cb. Note that the m6 is Cb, not B, which is an Augmented 5th.

 

[LG TPAFL]

I'm only just about 4 years in to playing bass (or any instrument) and I love the theory side of it. My understanding is that yes, you can use the major 6ths and 7ths as chromatic/passing/leading/non-diatonic notes in a minor key (certainly a trademark of Jamerson's) but in this case the music goes to the Cm chord which is outside of Ebm, in theory (fact?).....and it sounds great. And with that, it is either a modal change or a borrowed chord. Again, my understanding of theory. I welcome any corrections to my thinking.......

 

[mambo4]

Bb7 to Cmin is a textbook Deceptive cadence, tho technically that's would be Eb Major
The chords Eb min - Ab7-Bb7 strike me as Eb minor(ish) blues.
In that context a decpetive cadence to a vi chord ( Cmin ) isn't that outrageous.

 

[SteveCS]

you can use the major 6ths and 7ths as chromatic/passing/leading/non-diatonic

My point is that those are diatonic.

...
but in this case the music goes to the Cm chord which is outside of Ebm, in theory (fact?).....and it sounds great. And with that, it is either a modal change or a borrowed chord.
...

... or just a simple (temporary) key change?

 

[bfields]

Ok I think my problem here is that I'm talking about keys and thinking about key signatures. I meant that saying Ebm = 6 sharps or 6 flats thus implying a C# and a natural B, and no C which is the major sixth.

Pedantic nitpick: we'd usually call those notes Db and Cb, not C# and B natural. I know, they're just different names for the same notes, but the convention is that when you spell a scale, you only use each letter once, in order: So the Eb minor scale is spelled Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, Eb. (Not, for example, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, B, C#, Eb, because that uses B twice and and skips D.)

(Alternatively, you could call it the D# minor scale and spell it D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#. Either is OK, but you generally want to pick one and stick to it.)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The chords Eb min - Ab7-Bb7 strike me as Eb minor(ish) blues.

Some nuances could be different, but the theory fundamentals (and functionality) are the same.
The above quoted song is in Emin with some elements of chord borrowing - in our case, from a parallel major key - E major instead of E minor.

 

[mambo4]

Some of this discussion - where Cmin seems like the "wrong" vi chord for the key of Ebmin
reminds me of some recent material I watched about Chromatic Mediant Chords

A Chromatic Mediant Chord is a III or VI chord that is borrowed from a parallel key or mode
For the key of C the vi chord is A minor. A Chromatic Mediant replacement could be any of :
A major, Ab minor, Ab major

similarly in the key of Eb minor, the chord C minor could be viewed as a chromatic mediant chord
borrowed form Eb major. Which has already been said, just now with added jargon.

combined with @SteveCS 's suggestion that a variety of VI chords can be considered diatonic to minor Keys
This suggests to me that the III and the VI (and the VII) can be viewed as "fuzzy" as far as what may work in the context of diatonic (ish) progression. You can slap a bIII into an otherwise major key progression and things can still feel "in the key". (A bluesy I7, IV7 & V7 helps to 'smear' the diatonic-ness)