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Sound for an Outdoor Gig

P

Positively

Aug 8, 2006
55
0
#1
Playing an outdoor gig with a guitar, bass and drums. 50' x 100' is the size of the area where we're playing.

The bass is through a Behringer 450 watt amp. The guitar is a Fender Vibroverb 150W 15" amp. The drums are not mic'd. The vocals go through a Kustom PA.

The question is whether we need to run the guitar through the PA, not for volume reasons, but for the mix.

One person had thought that a guitar amp of that size could handle it without having to go through the PA. The other person thought that the guitar amp was powerful enough, but wouldn't sound right.
 
#2
The guitar will surely be loud enough. Whether it sounds "right" or not is a matter of personal preference. You certainly don't have any need to mic the guitar and your gig will be fine.

If you decide to mic it, then you'll have the flexibility to make some EQ changes and maybe add FX and whatnot. You're also allowing the possibility of the sound guy EQing the guitar in a less than helpful way and making the whole band sound bad. This is easy to do, particularly with sound men who are inexperienced. Making the guitar sound "huge" by boosting the lower frequencies will make it interfere with the bass and drums and quickly muddy up your sound, cause feedback, lead to fistfights, etc. :D

I guess the question to ask is: does the person who will be running your sound have the necessary skill and experience with a PA to make micing the guitar beneficial?
 
#3
hbarcat:

Thanks for the very helpful response. The answer to the question whether the person running our sound will have the necessary skill and experience with a PA to make micing the guitar beneficial is likely "no." We don't have a sound man. We have debated getting one, but since we don't make any money from our gigs, we would basically be paying out of pocket to play.

This has become a surprisingly big issue in this band. I'm not sure why, but if you have any further feedback (pardon the pun), it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

-Trying to stay Positively
 
#5
Micing a guitar into a PA does sound better than straight from the amp in most circumstances. But the guitarist has to have control of his volume, or else in your situation without someone who's strong with sound, you can take people's heads off with feedback and blow your PA cabs in the process. When nobody else is going through the PA, I think the mix is better off when the guitar's out of the PA. His amp will easily handle a room that size. So will yours. You might try it and see what you think, but my personal opinion is just run stage volume and use your PA for vocals, and try to get a good mix between yourselves and don't worry yourselves with mixing.
 
#6
JustDavid and JimmyM:

Thanks very much. I had worried about running the guitar through the PA because I thought it would mess up the vocals. But blowing the cabs is more of a concern because, well, it is actually my PA. I play bass and sing, and I run the vocals through the PA. That was the final factoid to add to this discussion, I suppose.

The guitar amp, by the way, is a beauty. A Fender work of art -- and I'm not even a guitarist. I've always thought it was more than loud enough and had a very nice and versatile sound.

-Positively
 
#7
Well if you ever beef your PA up and get a sub or two, you might want to start running guitar and drums through it. But without a sub to take the low end, instruments can be difficult. Not so much guitar unless he downtunes a lot, but definitely bass and drums.
 
#8
One of the main purposes of the PA is to give an equal distribution of sound. Walk around the guitar amp (or try it with your bass amp). You'll notice that the sound changes dramatically. Highs and mids go straight out from the speaker, so if the listener can't see the center of the speaker, they're missing part of the sound. One of my friends used to say, "I love the sound that comes out of my marshall half-stack, but the last place I want to be is in front of it." The highs were harsh straight out, but off to the sides they balanced out.

Mic the guitar's speaker and get a knowledgeable friend to help run it. Since it's not going to be used for the crowd, your guitarist will want to turn it towards himself to avoid clashing with the PA and making hot spots in the crowd.
 
#9
When I run sound, I always mic the guitar amp, even if the room is small. I have the guy angle his amp blasting sideways across the stage, or angled somewhat (to compromise), and on a road case or crate. Everyone can hear themselves better this way.

I mic the amp so that I can run delay (if the guy like it on his solos), or, if the PA is in stereo, pan the sound slightly to the side opposite of where the guy is, to even out the sound. A little (both in panning and volume) goes a long way.
 
#10
Just played a small outdoor gig. First time I have gigged outdoors with a PA *with* subs. We ran vocals, bass, kick drum, and snare through the PA. Did it ever make a difference!

But notice, we did not run the guitars. They where more than loud enough by themselves.

You can see the subs with the mains above them. It turned out that the two front monitors where not working properly for the first set. I didn't even miss them.
 

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#11
Hi.

I think the most important thing hasn't been asked or told: How big is Your (Kustom PA)?
Additionally, how much signal processing capability it has? Mainly compressor capability.

If any "PA" falls into the vocal reinforcement category, ie. less than 500W, no compressors, small satelite speakers without a sub etc., it's best to left that to amplifying vocals and perhaps some acoustic instruments. Small systems tend to run out of headroom really fast and all You get from that point on is mud.

When running sound, I too like to mic the guitars, and for the same reasons that has been said earlier. The guitar cabs have such a narrow beam, that getting an adequate sound dispersion without mic'ing is really hard. It's not about the power, a 20W tube combo (or SS for that matter ;)) will be heard over a loud drummer and a bass stack. It may not be the best tone in the world, but it will be heard.

As have also been said earlier, if You don't have a soundperson, and there's even a SLIGHTEST possibility for the guitar player to noodle with his levels during the set: FORGET MIC'ING.

You will be doing yourselves a favour sound-wise and possibly saving your cabs from destruction.

BTW, I've been doing stuff like this for about 25 years, most of the time with small, tired and obsolete (tube) PA systems, so I think I know what I'm talking about ;)

Regards
Sam
 
#12
^^^ Great post!


That comment by T-Bird is an important point. If you set up your PA for the vocals and decide to also run the electric guitar through it you may do a perfect sound check and sound great for the first few songs. But if your guitarist decides to walk over to his amp in the middle of a song and up his volume by 5% or fiddle with the EQ and you have no experienced sound man minding the board, it may very well crap up the entire band sound and start a downward spiral into an auditory train wreck. I've seen it happen and it's not a pretty sight. :eyebrow:
 
#15
Thanks for all of the responses. This has been a veritable education in sound. To answer some questions, yes, the Kustom is an entry level PA. It has two 15 inch speakers and a basic head. It is the one with the speakers on stands.

The guitarist typically runs through all kinds of weird pedals and gizmos prior to his amp, and another thing to consider is that he also changes guitars for some songs. This may change the levels and the fine balance that apparently is what requires a good sound man.
 
#17
seanm said:
Just played a small outdoor gig. First time I have gigged outdoors with a PA *with* subs. We ran vocals, bass, kick drum, and snare through the PA. Did it ever make a difference!

But notice, we did not run the guitars. They where more than loud enough by themselves.
Click to expand...

I was going to say, in the OP's situation, seems to me the guitar is the only thing that does NOT need to go thru the P.A.
 
#18
that vibroverb is actually more like 40 watts, but for guitar that's plenty loud enough to make everyone angry!

+1 to leaving it out of the PA; if there's any vocal mics up there, they'll pick up that guitar (along with the snare drum and cymbals) just fine.

you might try sneaking in just a pinch of kick drum, to get it closer to the same volume as the rest of the kit. you're not looking for bottom end here (outdoors with no subs? not a chance), just a little presence to make it more audible.
 
#19
MNAirHead said:
Remember to get the amp pointing at the guitard..
Click to expand...

+1

Put it up on a stand or tilt it back so it gets directly to the guitar player's ears. It suggest to get at least 15 feet out front on the amps on stage if you can.

IME, guitar amps are too directional and will not be heard much on the opposite side of the audience. Another option is run a guitar extension cab to the other side of the stage.

Or possibly run a cable out of the the other input into another extension amp on the other side of the stage.

Be sure to do a good sound check because the guitar player won't have to turn up as much. Get a 30 -40 ft. cord or wireless so you can go FOH to set things right.

Let us know how it goes.

Good luck.

edit: I reread the OP. I live on a 140x50 lot so as far as equipment goes, IME, you have enough to cover the area fine. As far as your original question:
The question is whether we need to run the guitar through the PA, not for volume reasons, but for the mix.
Click to expand...

Running the guitar through the PA and panning it to the opposite side of where the guitar amp is placed might be worth testing, like you said, "for the mix". Just loud enough to fill in. I think that might work and not tax the PA too much.

Since you won't have a sound person, getting out front during sound check it much more important. Will you have any friends in the audience that can let you know what's happening during the gig as far as the sound goes?
 

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