Double Bass Sounding flat vs sounding sharp

[Don Kasper]

Note to Don Kasper: I wonder if JB would have any comment on this. I'm pretty sure he studied with Mr. Karr.

Hi Rick,
I don't recall JB VanDemark ever commenting on G. Karr's Pitch concept or approach.
I do recall JB mentioning that Vibrato should sound below the pitch and oscillate "up to" (but not "sharp" or beyond) the pitch, but I don't recall if this was from G. Karr or not.
JB DID play IN TUNE like a Mo Fo, as I recall.
Thanks.

 

[rickwolff]

Hi Rick,
I don't recall JB VanDemark ever commenting on G. Karr's Pitch concept or approach.
I do recall JB mentioning that Vibrato should sound below the pitch and oscillate "up to" (but not "sharp" or beyond) the pitch, but I don't recall if this was from G. Karr or not.
JB DID play IN TUNE like a Mo Fo, as I recall.
Thanks.

I believe there is a quote from a newspaper review of JB's solo with the Minneapolis Symphony when JB was about 16 that said JB played as if he was INCAPABLE OF PLAYING OUT OF TUNE.

 

[Don Kasper]

I believe there is a quote from a newspaper review of JB's solo with the Minneapolis Symphony when JB was about 16 that said JB played as if he was INCAPABLE OF PLAYING OUT OF TUNE.

At Master Class, we (his students ) would play for JB and our fellow classmates - if someone became terribly lost or faltered/trainwrecked, JB would mercifully stop the performance by saying "EEE-NOUGH!"...then have the performer start over.
We could all imitate JB's "EEE-NOUGH!!"
TMI/FYI.
Thanks.

 

[Reiska]

The serious intonation wizard in action:

 

[Neil Pye]

I was wondering if anyone would ask this about Gar Karr. (I wouldn't have been brave enough to ask it myself, But my impression is the same). You mention a 'mournful, soulful sound'. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this something Mr. Karr does to best express the mood and spirit of the piece. If that is the case you would expect to hear this less in some pieces than others

Note to Don Kasper: I wonder if JB would have any comment on this. I'm pretty sure he studied with Mr. Karr.

I did a Masterclass with Gary Karr many years ago, and he certainly moved his intonation around to create and release tension in the music he was playing, and encouraged me to do the same, but I can't say I noticed any tendency to play either sharp or flat. In general his intonation was immaculate, except where he wanted a particular effect. Maybe that's rose-tinted hindsight....

 

[jj.833]

I remember from choir singing that the singers without reference tend to go flat. You sing a verse in C, then in the second verse the piano joins in and suddenly you hear that you are singing quarter tone below. Happens more or less to all singers I know. Explanation is found in psychoacoustic theory, saying that the ear is more able to recognize just a bit sharp tones as sharp, while just a bit flat tones are heard as exact tones, because ear has a slight ability to tune up. Not down.
I'd think that playing sharp might feel tempting because you instantly hear that you play something extraordinary; I guess it's similar to my tendency to play ahead of the right time. It might be appealing sometimes, but mostly it messes up the music of others.
I was taught that when I'm not able to play in tune, it's safer to play a bit flat and then slide to the right stop, because tuning from below pains the listeners less that tuning from sharp.

 

[SteveCS]

Hi Rick,
I don't recall JB VanDemark ever commenting on G. Karr's Pitch concept or approach.
I do recall JB mentioning that Vibrato should sound below the pitch and oscillate "up to" (but not "sharp" or beyond) the pitch, but I don't recall if this was from G. Karr or not.
JB DID play IN TUNE like a Mo Fo, as I recall.
Thanks.

Cellist Pau Casels taught the same thing. The thinking is that the way the brain works, the minute you go sharp you are hinting at the next higher pitch. Vibrato should also be assymetrical - push quickly into pitch from below then relax back more slowly before pushing up again.

 

[Neil Pye]

I was taught the same re vibrato, you shouldnt go above the pitch of the note

 

[gerry grable]

Cellist Pau Casels taught the same thing. The thinking is that the way the brain works, the minute you go sharp you are hinting at the next higher pitch. Vibrato should also be assymetrical - push quickly into pitch from below then relax back more slowly before pushing up again.

Casals also said that there is a difference between C# and Db.
He said this in an interesting book, which I have sadly lost, Conversations With Casals.

 

[letrabass]

Casals also said that there is a difference between C# and Db.
He said this in an interesting book, which I have sadly lost, Conversations With Casals.

Actually, there's a difference with all notes, even unaltered ones, depending on which tonality you're playing at the moment, if you want the chords between all the players to sound in tune and full, so that the tensions between modulations have the impact that they require. Specially if you play in an ensemble with instruments without fixed intonation, like an orchestra, you'll quickly learn that all the notes have to be arranged depending on which chord you're in at the precise moment!

Curiously enough, bass players have the tendency to play sharps well, a bit sharp; and flats well, a bit flat. I don't know why that is, but the moment you start relating this notes to the most common tonalities in orchestral music, you get into really big problems. Sharps are usually too high and flats too low so that tonalities lose their character, their colours get shaved off and modulations don't sound as imposing.

I'll take your C# and Db to illustrate the relation of altered notes IN HARMONY (and how their sharpness/flatness relates to when they are the fundamental/tonic of the tonality and therefore 'absolutely' in tune): C# is the third of A major, so it has to be flat to sound in tune. But if you're in F# (mind you, major or minor) that C# is the fifth and has now to be completely in tune/a little bit high, even if just a tad. About that Db: if it's the third of a Bb minor chord it has to be a bit high but if it appears int he music as the 7th of Eb it has to be a bit flat.

A note that is specially problematic with basses, IME, is the Ab on the E string. Because it is more difficult to reach than other notes on that position and it requires a bit more strength to be pressed, it happens quite a lot that it is very flat. This a big problem if you're in Ab (minor/major) because it is actually a very bright note in most chords in orchestral (quite natural to most brass instruments), so that when the basses are too flat no one knows where to play their notes anymore.

I hope I could explain my point well enough!! This applies mostly to orchestral music, mind you!!

To wrap up, this is the thing, for me at least: there are a couple of rules for each note that I always follow while playing in orchestra. Like, most C#'s, G#'s, F#'s will be flat (because they are most commonly major thirds and 7ths); most Eb's, Ab's, Bb's will be high/perfect (mostly they appear in classical music as fundamentals, 5ths or minor 3rds); and that with each note. They get tweaked in the moment depending on whats happening around, not only the tonality and function of a note at a particular point in the piece, but also of the colleagues that are playing with me (as you might know, strings usually go flat during performance and winds go up).
It's a nice thing to keep one's mind sharp at all times and quite helps get through long performances, but that might be just me!!