Stacking 2x10, 2x12 - EBS Neo and in General

[pmchenry]

You come along here with a major attitude, chip on your shoulder regarding things you clearly don't understand. You actively mock and disparage when anyone tries to bring you up to speed. Then you take offense when someone (moi) calls you on it. Yet I'm the one with poor manners?

Okay, everyone just simmer down now... MysticMike, I think without realizing it you came across a bit high and mighty in your reply about the mismatch argument not being a holy war. Your reply basically said "there's no holy war, there's just my side that is right and the other side which is always wrong..." To say the discussion on mismatched speakers has been resolved with one side or the other being clearly right or wrong is a pretty major misrepresentation of the issue.

Everyone knows about phase cancellation, and the unpredictability of it all... to that degree we ALL agree. But the people who run mismatched gear(full disclosure: this includes me) take this into account when they try before they buy. What always baffles me is this idea that people are ordering cabinets to throw together without ever listening to them. Do people actually do that?! That's unfathomable to me.

 

[Sid Fang]

What always baffles me is this idea that people are ordering cabinets to throw together without ever listening to them. Do people actually do that?! That's unfathomable to me.

Some people are in areas where interesting gear isn't stocked by any local shop, so we have to order "on spec" and deal with the hassle of returning the gear if it doesn't sound right. So even though I know that my taste in sound isn't going to be the same as the anyone else's, even a small sample set of people saying "I tried it, and it sounded like X" or "I tried it, it sucked" can help inform the decision on whether to roll the dice. Particularly if I know something about those people's tastes, from their posts about gear with which I am familiar.

 

[walterw]

Some people are in areas where interesting gear isn't stocked by any local shop, so we have to order "on spec" and deal with the hassle of returning the gear if it doesn't sound right.

...the decision on whether to roll the dice...

so you apparently "want to like" the 2x10 on top of your 2x12; is it just a size thing, not wanting to drag out a big stack?

it's safe to make three assumptions here, i think;

1; if you like your 2x12, the second 2x12 would obviously kick ass on top of it, and is your "can't lose" choice.

2; the 2x10 would not kick as much ass as the 2x12, but would probably still sound pretty good, as it's not some radically different design from the 2x12, even having the same width for stacking.

3; (like bill F was metaphorically shouting) adding either one would kick more ass than your current cab by itself.

 

[Sid Fang]

so you apparently "want to like" the 2x10 on top of your 2x12; is it just a size thing, not wanting to drag out a big stack?

Pretty much. That and I've had club gigs where the 2x12 was overkill. The idea was to have a scalable set of rigs, Drome => HD350/210 => HD350/212 => HD350/210+212. I'd rarely need to use the full stack, but I'd want the two cabs to "play nice" when I did.

it's safe to make three assumptions here, i think;

1; if you like your 2x12, the second 2x12 would obviously kick ass on top of it, and is your "can't lose" choice.

2; the 2x10 would not kick as much ass as the 2x12, but would probably still sound pretty good, as it's not some radically different design from the 2x12, even having the same width for stacking.

3; (like bill F was metaphorically shouting) adding either one would kick more ass than your current cab by itself.

Unless EBS did something surprisingly stupid and designed the Neo speaker series without any thought for mixing and matching. What with all the FUD about phase effects from the mixed drivers, I was hoping to get some first-hand testamonials.

 

[ksandvik]

Don't worry, go for the flexible 2x10 + 2x12 config.

 

[soulplane83]

I use an EBS Proline 2x12 and 2x10 stack and I love it.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Unless EBS did something surprisingly stupid and designed the Neo speaker series without any thought for mixing and matching.

No speaker manufacturers that I'm aware of put any thought into mixing and matching, other than cosmetically. The painful truth is that few of them are any more aware of the issues involved than you are. Where it comes to eliminating potential negative interactions between different drivers operating in the same passband there's only one way to be sure of it: don't use different drivers in the same passband.

I was hoping to get some first-hand testamonials.

I already told you what they'll say. Do I have to make it 1002 times so soon? OK, if you insist: Any two cabs together will sound better than either alone. If you want to know for sure if a 210/212 sounds better to you than a 210/210 or 212/212 there's only one way to find out. Try all three combinations yourself.

 

[StandTall]

I hate to high-jack this thread, but it's related. Would it be unusual to add a 1x15 to an already 2x12 + 2x10 stack? I haven't had any phase issues with the stack so far.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Not unusual at all. Not recommended either, for exact same reason.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I haven't had any phase issues with the stack so far.

How do you know? That's the problem with mixing versus matching. Since any two cabs together will sound better than either one alone (within reason of course, stupid combinations like an 810 and a 6 inch hi-fi cab don't qualify) you have no way of knowing if there are phase issues lest you make a direct on the spot comparison to a rig that has no phases issues, ie., two identical cabs. If you can do so and be sure that the mixed cabs work better than matched cabs before buying, all well and good. If you can't you'll never know. Ignorance in this case may be bliss, but personally I'd rather be intelligently informed than blissfully ignorant.

 

[AlexanderB]

Phasing issues...
Well, given that EBS uses off the shelf Eminence drivers (that all tend to have quite similar Qts and Fs etc. values that contribute to the shape of phase curve) and tune most of their cabinets in the 42-50 Hz range (that determine the "null" of the phase curve) there will not be very big deviation in phasing.

All this can easily be confirmed with loudspeaker simulation software. Most conventional, commercial bass cabinets match and mate pretty well, IME. (In terms of phase response.) Exceptions like the ACME cabinets exist.

Feel free to point out any relevant example of phasing issues when pairing two vented bass cabinets. Sealed vs vented, now that is a different story.
And even more important, the maximum output related to voltage. (Like adding a low impedance, low output 15" to a hign impedance, high capacity 410 from the same power source.)

 

[billfitzmaurice]

there will not be very big deviation in phasing.
All this can easily be confirmed with loudspeaker simulation software.

Or not.

This chart shows a Deltalite II 2510 (lighter trace) and Deltalite II 2512 (darker trace) in vented cabs of similar size to the EBS. For the uninitiated, where the two lines are 180 degrees apart there will be complete cancellation of output. Everywhere else they will will complement and detract from each other at a different ratio depending on how much difference there is between them.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Or not.

This chart shows a Deltalite II 2510 (lighter trace) and Deltalite II 2512 (darker trace) in vented cabs of similar size to the EBS. For the uninitiated, where the two lines are 180 degrees apart there will be complete cancellation of output. Everywhere else they will will complement and detract from each other at a different ratio depending on how much difference there is between them.

This post is fantastic. Thanks Bill you rock.

 

[AlexanderB]

Could you please specify what box parameters you have used?

 

[CherokeeBassist]

I think he voted for obama

 

[AlexanderB]

Who did?