Stage Wedges - One or Two??

[billinbrasil]

Getting old sucks....

My voice just doesn't have the power it once had and I'm finding it necessary to compensate by turning up the gain on my microphone. This obviously gets me closer to feedback, so I was wondering if there might be some benefit to include a second wedge in my stage monitor setup.

The logic behind this idea would be that two wedges would move more air so, in theory, they could individually operate at lower dB but together still provide adequate volume. The other side of the coin is that there would then be two potential feedback sources to worry about.

My monitors are almost exclusively for vocals, although I might bring in a little of the guitar, depending on the room.

Besides lead singing and playing bass, I´m also running sound from the stage. I want (need) something to "set and forget".

Thoughts??

BTW, the other two guys in the band use IEMs, so they're all set. IEM doesn't cut it for me....

 

[s0c9]

I was going to suggest IEMS, until I read the last line of your post.
Why don't they cut it?
I'm asking because you can crank them til they take your head off with ZERO danger of feedback.
Oops.. missed the running sound. Yeah, can't do that with IEMS.
2 wedges angled at you will be better than one... and you should be able to turn down the overall volume.

 

[BassAndReeds]

Doesn't hurt to try, especially if you already have the equipment.

If feedback becomes an issue, I'd look into a mic upgrade. Not sure what that would be, but I imagine different mics would be better at feedback prevention.

What's your current mic setup?

 

[billinbrasil]

I set up my rig and monitor setup in my practice room with two powered monitors and it "seems" to be louder before feedback. I'm going to give it a try at our next gig.

I use a Sennheiser e835. The e935 has a tighter pattern so would likely have a better gain before feedback response. However, I sometimes find myself singing slightly off-mic, especially when using my electric upright.

Thanks for the replies!!

 

[BassAndReeds]

I set up my rig and monitor setup in my practice room with two powered monitors and it "seems" to be louder before feedback. I'm going to give it a try at our next gig.

I use a Sennheiser e835. The e935 has a tighter pattern so would likely have a better gain before feedback response. However, I sometimes find myself singing slightly off-mic, especially when using my electric upright.

Thanks for the replies!!

Oh. So this is for a practice room type of situation?

Nevermind. I think I misread.

 

[billinbrasil]

Oh. So this is for a practice room type of situation?

Nevermind. I think I misread.

No, it's for live use. I just set it up in my practice room to check it out.....

 

[musicman7722]

I run sound, sing 20 songs a night and play bass fine using my IEM.

 

[walterw]

BTW, the other two guys in the band use IEMs, so they're all set. IEM doesn't cut it for me...

you should re-think that. if you want to sing without "pushing" and hear yourself easily then IEMs are the answer. (they're also the answer if you don't want to enjoy deafness and constant tinnitus in your golden years)

otherwise, the two-monitor thing has problems as well; yes it's louder, but you get this weird phase smear from having two high-frequency horns a yard apart, they comb-filter against each other and it just sounds bad.

if it really has to come down to a matter of louder wedges, then you need one better wedge with more power behind it.

 

[BassAndReeds]

No, it's for live use. I just set it up in my practice room to check it out.....

I would consider a mic update. AKG D5 or Shure SM58. Especially the D5. I wonder if them mic performance is making you move away from the mic, making the issue occur. (I sing with a SM58. Now I want a D5)

Take a listen to the following comparison. Sennheiser noticably emphases vocal pops, which could make a singer back away from the mic.

 

[billinbrasil]

you should re-think that. if you want to sing without "pushing" and hear yourself easily then IEMs are the answer. (they're also the answer if you don't want to enjoy deafness and constant tinnitus in your golden years)

otherwise, the two-monitor thing has problems as well; yes it's louder, but you get this weird phase smear from having two high-frequency horns a yard apart, they comb-filter against each other and it just sounds bad.

if it really has to come down to a matter of louder wedges, then you need one better wedge with more power behind it.

Constant tininitus is already a fact of life for me, has been for a very long time.....:-(

In my short twst, I didn't notice any phase or comb filter problems. I'll listen a little closer the next time I try the idea out.

Concerning a larger, more powerful wedge, I guess my point was to try to more more air with two monitors, thereby creating a larger area of coverage without a large increase in volume. I don't know, maybe I'm thinking wrong on this....

Thanks for the input.

 

[billinbrasil]

I would consider a mic update. AKG D5 or Shure SM58. Especially the D5. I wonder if them mic performance is making you move away from the mic, making the issue occur. (I sing with a SM58. Now I want a D5)

Take a listen to the following comparison. Sennheiser noticably emphases vocal pops, which could make a singer back away from the mic.

I would consider a mic update. AKG D5 or Shure SM58. Especially the D5. I wonder if them mic performance is making you move away from the mic, making the issue occur. (I sing with a SM58. Now I want a D5)

Take a listen to the following comparison. Sennheiser noticably emphases vocal pops, which could make a singer back away from the mic.

The reason I sometimes stray away from my mic is because I suck on the electric upright, having to look at the neck from time to time while singing.....

In any event, I'll check out this AKG mic.

Thanks!!

 

[Slevage]

Supercardioid patter( Shure beta) has higher gain before feedback.

Monitor wedges (1 or 2) set off axis.
Use the funny looking plot that comes with the mic to find the "null" location off the back of the mic.

 

[micguy]

If you're using a cardioid mic, then the best gain before feedback you can get is with one monitor straight off the back of the mic - multiple wedges are less than optimal, not better. On most stages, you're too cramped to get that geometry precisely, but it's the ideal for a cardioid. With a Supercardioid, there's a cone where the mic has its best rejection, and then placing 2 wedges in that cone can work well. But, if you move the mic off the stand, you have to think about phasing issues between the monitors as you move around - there is no free lunch.

 

[chuck1073]

I mix from the stage and use IEM's.....but only one ear. Works just fine. I don't have to turn them up much at all. Just enough to be comfortable and for me to accurately hear pitch and phrasing. Of course, in this case all of the bands sound, with the exception of vocals, keys and acoustic guitar, comes from the backline.

 

[Bredian]

IEM doesn't cut it for me....

I won't try to sell you IEMs (I've used before)

We use 3 monitors across the front of stage for keys player, bass, vocalist, and guitar. The outside monitors are set at low angle to shoot across to the other side of stage. I run my vocals through these at different levels creating a stereo effect, with similar but different balance for each. Lead vocalist gets a little in each, more in the middle creating spots on stage that are optimal for each singer. We're able to do this at lower volume levels. Not a lot of instrument coming through as we also have our amps on stage. Drummer has his own monitor.

Monitors can be tough if you have the whole band coming through like an AM radio.

 

[abarson]

A stand mounted vocal monitor like the TC Helicon VoiceSolo FX150 might fit the ticket. It would allow you to either just monitor your vocals or the whole band as an Aux mix.

 

[Wasnex]

Getting old sucks....

My voice just doesn't have the power it once had and I'm finding it necessary to compensate by turning up the gain on my microphone. This obviously gets me closer to feedback, so I was wondering if there might be some benefit to include a second wedge in my stage monitor setup.

The logic behind this idea would be that two wedges would move more air so, in theory, they could individually operate at lower dB but together still provide adequate volume. The other side of the coin is that there would then be two potential feedback sources to worry about.

My monitors are almost exclusively for vocals, although I might bring in a little of the guitar, depending on the room.

Besides lead singing and playing bass, I´m also running sound from the stage. I want (need) something to "set and forget".

Thoughts??

BTW, the other two guys in the band use IEMs, so they're all set. IEM doesn't cut it for me....

Having two wedges will deliver the sound more effectively to both ears.

Consider running the wedges in stereo with your mic and instrument in the middle. Limit panning to about +/- 15dB L/R. This will allow you to hear better and possibly even reduce your monitoring level a bit.

Select the right mic....here's a relevant article: Microphone rejection nodes

 

[4Mal]

Best gain before feedback (GBF) will be wth one monitor, directly behind the mic, not off axis almost every time. Most vocal mics I have expeperience with are null on the back, hot to the sides. Hyper card are less hot to the side but are still hot...

I use the Audix vx-5 hand held condenser with very good results. It is very sensitive so I don't have to be right on it. It also has very low proximity so I can get up on it and sing breathy with decent tone. At least as decent as my voice gets ;-)

The single most important thing you can do is to manage stage volume. If your are playing with brass, you need to be away from them... if the drums are too loud, either the drummer learns to back off or uses shields... and so on.

 

[newwavefrank]

The reason I sometimes stray away from my mic is because I suck on the electric upright, having to look at the neck from time to time while singing.....

In any event, I'll check out this AKG mic.

Thanks!!

Have you considered a headset? I use a Crown Cm 311 and it sounds great and incredible gain before feedback. I can also look down..(or up, around wherever) and my mic stays in front of my mouth. It was weird at first but now i can't live without it. I HATE it wehn I have to do a gig with a stand mounted mic.

 

[walterw]

I mix from the stage and use IEM's.....but only one ear.

yikes!

never do that, it's a short road to hearing damage.

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The Quiet Stage - Mixonline

"When players take one out, their brain loses its ability to do binaural summation, where two ears together add up to a 6dB increase in your perception of loudness," Santucci explains. "If you're hearing 90 dB in both ears, your brain thinks it's hearing 96 dB. If you take one ear away, then that one ear has to go from 90 to 96 to sound like 96. And now the other ear is open and getting bashed by the band, the P.A. and the crowd. So this loud sound coming into the open ear causes you to turn the other ear up even more. In terms of ear safety, using one earpiece is a dangerous practice — it could actually be worse than using none at all."

George Petersen is Mix's executive editor.