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Standard Notation question

#21
Even the quote says "Pre 20th Century". In the 20th century (and after) I've never seen it used. However, we have a college level thoery teacher in our midst, so we can ask him to shed some light on this..... Duurrrl? You there?
 
#22
Originally posted by tuba_bass_boy
I asked my instructor how he learned it, and what he said he was taught about it...

A note on the middle line is a D (bass clef). The frequency is 147 Hz. If there is a D#, then it goes up one half step, to 156 Hz. If there is a Db (in the same measure), then the note goes down 2 half steps to 139 Hz. The flat isn't needed to cancel the sharp, it is just a flat. The same applies to double flat or double sharp. If there is a D## written, it isn't necessary to notate a Dbb to take it back to D natural.
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I think you may have missunderstood. A double natural indicator would bring a D## or Dbb back to natural D (within the same measure) not bb to undo ## or vice versa. If you ever (and I have NO idea when you'd ever see something like this) have D## (E) and then Dbb within the same measure you should play a C not a natural D. Why? Because music notation is never going to do this (Dzzbb) to suddenly indicate Dbb after a D## (in the same measure) which is what would have to be done if we were to follow the original theory of this thread. (Note:I'm using z to indicate a natural symbol.)

Also, tell your instructor we really don't need the frequencies. I know he's trying to be thorough but it just over complicates the explanation.;)
 
#23
Originally posted by Pacman
Even the quote says "Pre 20th Century". In the 20th century (and after) I've never seen it used. However, we have a college level thoery teacher in our midst, so we can ask him to shed some light on this..... Duurrrl? You there?
Click to expand...

Hey, are you implying I'm an old fart?:D

Well, it's true I've played my share of pre-20th-century music ...

I blame the nuns.

Yeah, where's DURRL when you need him?
 
#24
Originally posted by Pacman
Even the quote says "Pre 20th Century". In the 20th century (and after) I've never seen it used. However, we have a college level thoery teacher in our midst, so we can ask him to shed some light on this..... Duurrrl? You there?
Click to expand...


Oh, Jesus, THE PRESSURE... How do you guys expect me to perform under these conditions?


All I know about the practice of cancelling accidentals and showing a "courtesy natural" is that it's old school, and that nobody does it anymore. I don't recall seeing it in any 20th century music, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I also have it right here in front of me in Simandl, and I've also seen it in music that was roughly from that period (19th century) or earlier.

Whether or not anyone in the 20th century still does this, it's good to keep in mind that notation - like music - is an ever-evolving art form, and like anything else that grows, it sometimes has growing pains. For example, check on Finale for an option that will let you change key signatures with a full set of naturals from the previous key while adding new accidentals for the new key. This was common in older music, but gradually fewer and fewer people were doing it (they figured out that it was redundant), so now it's only an option on a software program. Things change, but it takes time. I guess that probably doesn't help much, but it's the best I can do.
 
#25
Sorry about that. I accidently wrote that a flat canceled out a sharp. I meant a natural. oops...

I meant what you said. I just didn't say it. But I meant it. oops. You all still get my point.

Sorry about the frequencies. I put those in myself. I was trying to explain my point more clearly. Instead, I made it worse :rolleyes:

I do that a bit...
 
#26
Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald



Oh, Jesus, THE PRESSURE... How do you guys expect me to perform under these conditions?


All I know about the practice of cancelling accidentals and showing a "courtesy natural" is that it's old school, and that nobody does it anymore. I don't recall seeing it in any 20th century music, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I also have it right here in front of me in Simandl, and I've also seen it in music that was roughly from that period (19th century) or earlier.

Whether or not anyone in the 20th century still does this, it's good to keep in mind that notation - like music - is an ever-evolving art form, and like anything else that grows, it sometimes has growing pains. For example, check on Finale for an option that will let you change key signatures with a full set of naturals from the previous key while adding new accidentals for the new key. This was common in older music, but gradually fewer and fewer people were doing it (they figured out that it was redundant), so now it's only an option on a software program. Things change, but it takes time. I guess that probably doesn't help much, but it's the best I can do.
Click to expand...

Yea! Thats what I meant, yea. ;) :D
 
#27
Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald



Oh, Jesus, THE PRESSURE... How do you guys expect me to perform under these conditions?


All I know about the practice of cancelling accidentals and showing a "courtesy natural" is that it's old school, and that nobody does it anymore. I don't recall seeing it in any 20th century music, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I also have it right here in front of me in Simandl, and I've also seen it in music that was roughly from that period (19th century) or earlier.

Whether or not anyone in the 20th century still does this, it's good to keep in mind that notation - like music - is an ever-evolving art form, and like anything else that grows, it sometimes has growing pains. For example, check on Finale for an option that will let you change key signatures with a full set of naturals from the previous key while adding new accidentals for the new key. This was common in older music, but gradually fewer and fewer people were doing it (they figured out that it was redundant), so now it's only an option on a software program. Things change, but it takes time. I guess that probably doesn't help much, but it's the best I can do.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, Chris; thanks.

I knew I was old school, but I hadn't realized I was *that* old school!

In practice, this probably isn't going to come up often in well-notated music. To return to the poster's original question, I think most all of us would have played the 2nd note as a Db (even while some of us--i.e., me--might have grumbled about the general decline in standards and how the world is going to hell in a handbasket).;)
 
#28
The thing that's easy to forget is that the world didn't always have the communication facilities that it does now. In previous centuries, musical style took a lot longer to "evolve" because music written in one country was typically played locally and not heard much farther away for some time...if people wanted to hear a lot of brand new French music, for example, they actually had to go to France. Also, when music was printed, they used typesetting machines, and primitive ones at that. Typesetting music was such a chore that sometimes older notational practices stayed in placed in more recent editions because the only real things that editors changed were expression markings, fingerings, ornaments, etc.

These days, with the non-destructive editing capabilities of computer systems, things evolve a lot more quickly, and notation is no exception. On the downside, because musical styles change so quickly, I sometimes wonder if styles get enough time to evolve into their full potential before being wiped out by the latest FLAVA OF THE MONTH.

End rant. :)
 

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