Double Bass string responce/soundpost- realistic expectations

[groooooove]

These two basses sound radically different.

That's kinda totally to be expected when A/B-ing ply vs. carved basses.

yeah, obviously they're completely different basses. the point of A/Bing them was to give a point of referance mostly of my audio quality. the difference between an inexpensive ply and this bass is very telling in this situation i think. it could also be a referance point since i think most of us have played a shen 80 at some point.

now that i've tinkered with strings, taking tension off the top, ext, id suspect that with the post adjusted, and if i put a lighter tension set of jazz strings on there, it would probably work. i agree that a new bass after a few weeks of heavy playing has settled into "its voice," and that changes made to it will all be subtle. but, several subtle changes can add up.

i do like zyex strings very much on my old german bass. i have a suspicion this bass will respond well to less tension. i may try zyex lights, perhaps for the A D and G, and i'll just keep the mittel E.

 

[groooooove]

Here's another thought: what is the string height (bottom of the string to the FB at the end of the FB) of the first two strings on the "dead" bass? how does it compare to the string heights of the same two strings on the "live" bass? I've been driven crazy in the past by bridge cuts that leave the G string too low in relation to the other strings, and had to have the bridge re-shaped every time. It's possible that your bridge cut could be lower on two strings, which could account for the lack of "pop" on those strings. Just a thought.

the bridge settings are almost identical, both were done by the same luthier.

 

[David Potts]

Luthiers please correct me if I am mistaken. My approach to first setting of the sound post is to fit it in line with the center of the bridge foot and about sound post diameter below the bottom edge of the foot. I then adjust the north-south distance until the G string works best before I then try and balance the four strings. In moving the sound post north-south I find that the G and A strings seem to pair together, as do the D and E, so that you move through nodal points where all notes work and in between where the pairs alternate in strength and response. Sometimes the differences in adjustment are what I call "love taps" with my sound post setter. I then try very small adjustments east-west. I understand that moving the post closer to the F hole (east) will give more freedom for the lower strings to move the belly.

I wonder whether moving the post west (inland) as well as up/down will help adjust your two top strings. I agree with drurb's comments above about the amount of power a bass is "born" with and that you should visit a specialist bass luthier now, not later. I would suggest Arnold Schnitzer.


Best wishes, DP

 

[arnoldschnitzer]

that's true, the bass is new and stuff- but if you listen to the soundfile, theres hardly any sustain on those strings.

I suspect you may have too much fingerboard camber (scoop) under the higher strings. I'd also check the nut heights. If you want more upper string sound/response, move the soundpost toward the bass bar.

 

[groooooove]

I suspect you may have too much fingerboard camber (scoop) under the higher strings. I'd also check the nut heights. If you want more upper string sound/response, move the soundpost toward the bass bar.

the fingerboard originally seemed to have too much camber to it when i first took it home. Jeff just did all the setup work on it a week or so ago, so i trust that the nut height and fingerboard camber are okay. they appear to be the same as my other two basses, which are both living happily ever after since jeff did the setup on them.

 

[JoeyNaeger]

About how much space do you see under the G-string when you push the string down at the nut and bridge end?

 

[Jake deVilliers]

I'm kinda wondering why you're not having this conversation with your luthier. I don't know Jeff Bollbach personally but nobody's ever implied that he doesn't know his sh*t.

 

[groooooove]

I'm kinda wondering why you're not having this conversation with your luthier. I don't know Jeff Bollbach personally but nobody's ever implied that he doesn't know his sh*t.

jeff certainly does know his stuff, and i called him earlier in the week and am going to stop by his shop tomorrow.

i still think theres some value to having these conversations publicly, even if at the end of the day i have complete faith in jeff and this matter is, in reality, 100% in his hands.

if nothing else, turning my own bass issue into a public thread can document results/outcomes for someone in the future dealing with the same issue. i've learned a lot reading old threads about other people/their basses/ext.

 

[james condino]

Lots of advice from well qualified folks here. At some point one has to accept the fact that no matter what snakeoil you throw at it, a new Chinese bass is never going to sound like a 200 year old Italian bass! It sounds like you brought home an uninspirational blonde and now you want a feisty redhead....good luck....

 

[groooooove]

Lots of advice from well qualified folks here. At some point one has to accept the fact that no matter what snakeoil you throw at it, a new Chinese bass is never going to sound like a 200 year old Italian bass! It sounds like you brought home an uninspirational blonde and now you want a feisty redhead....good luck....

haha, thats true. that being said, this bass is a killer for its intended purpose, which is all i "need" from it. the idea of using it on jazz gigs was a complete afterthought. i wouldn't compare this bass to anything uninspirational- i did play every single bass two different shops had in stock the day i got this one, and this one was the clear winner. she's been a feisty redhead all along.

just got back from having jeff tweak it. very eye-opening on how much the bass can change with a soundpost tweak.

as far as whats a realistic thing to expect, the results i observed from one soundpost change to another were far more dramatic than i ever expected. yes, a bass has its character that will never fundamentally change- however, it appears that between soundpost/setup and strings, you can get a lot of different things out of the same pieces of wood. he moved the post 3 times, including the original placement i heard 4 different soundpost settings. i wont say they sounded like a different bass each time, but the change was significant in sustain/responce.

i've only had the bass home for a little while so i don't wanna say too much other than i'm very pleased with the results.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

haha, thats true. that being said, this bass is a killer for its intended purpose, which is all i "need" from it. the idea of using it on jazz gigs was a complete afterthought. i wouldn't compare this bass to anything uninspirational- i did play every single bass two different shops had in stock the day i got this one, and this one was the clear winner. she's been a feisty redhead all along.

just got back from having jeff tweak it. very eye-opening on how much the bass can change with a soundpost tweak.

as far as whats a realistic thing to expect, the results i observed from one soundpost change to another were far more dramatic than i ever expected. yes, a bass has its character that will never fundamentally change- however, it appears that between soundpost/setup and strings, you can get a lot of different things out of the same pieces of wood. he moved the post 3 times, including the original placement i heard 4 different soundpost settings. i wont say they sounded like a different bass each time, but the change was significant in sustain/responce.

i've only had the bass home for a little while so i don't wanna say too much other than i'm very pleased with the results.

Attaboy!

 

[drurb]

haha, thats true. that being said, this bass is a killer for its intended purpose, which is all i "need" from it. the idea of using it on jazz gigs was a complete afterthought. i wouldn't compare this bass to anything uninspirational- i did play every single bass two different shops had in stock the day i got this one, and this one was the clear winner. she's been a feisty redhead all along.

just got back from having jeff tweak it. very eye-opening on how much the bass can change with a soundpost tweak.

as far as whats a realistic thing to expect, the results i observed from one soundpost change to another were far more dramatic than i ever expected. yes, a bass has its character that will never fundamentally change- however, it appears that between soundpost/setup and strings, you can get a lot of different things out of the same pieces of wood. he moved the post 3 times, including the original placement i heard 4 different soundpost settings. i wont say they sounded like a different bass each time, but the change was significant in sustain/responce.

i've only had the bass home for a little while so i don't wanna say too much other than i'm very pleased with the results.

Glad to hear you're happy! Visiting a talented luthier is almost always the right first move. The changes you describe are quite in line with expectations (at least, mine). What's most important is that now you have first-ear ( ) experience with what setup tweaks can yield. That's far more valuable, IMO, than any descriptions, explanations, and opinions on the subject you can get from others. Enjoy!

 

[groooooove]

I suspect you may have too much fingerboard camber (scoop) under the higher strings. I'd also check the nut heights. If you want more upper string sound/response, move the soundpost toward the bass bar.

now that i look, it appears that there is more than on my other basses. what is the appropriate method for measuring that? i was pressing the string down at both ends of the fingerboard and just looking between the bottom of the G and the fingerboard. to the naked eye this bass has a noticably larger gap than my other 2 basses. all 3 basses have had the fingerboards dressed within the last couple of months.

 

[JoeyNaeger]

Your neck/fingerboard might be flexing or warped slightly. I have installed graphite reinforcements on a few jazzer's basses to reduce scoop and improve sustain. Also, I personally tend to put more scoop in a board for an orchestral player than for a jazzer. The extra scoop could be a purposeful decision. Hard to say without seeing the bass, but it's something worth discussing with your luthier.

 

[groooooove]

Your neck/fingerboard might be flexing or warped slightly. I have installed graphite reinforcements on a few jazzer's basses to reduce scoop and improve sustain. Also, I personally tend to put more scoop in a board for an orchestral player than for a jazzer. The extra scoop could be a purposeful decision. Hard to say without seeing the bass, but it's something worth discussing with your luthier.

thats what i was thinking. this bass is definitely geard towards the orchestral playing.

i just tried measuring the gap, i pug a clamp on the g string to hold it down at the very end of the fingerboard, then pressed the other side near the nut down with my finger and measured at the spot where the neck joins to the top. it measured a hair over 2mm.

if theres a better way to measure scoop let me know. also, im assuming to reduce that you'd need to dress the entire fingerboard again?

i've also switched the strings to superflexibles wich sound unbeliavable for arco playing on this bass. they're pretty nice jazz strings too, but the reason they came off my other bass is how rough they are on the hands. if i feel like experimenting i may try zyex lights, but since this bass has an extention comming across full sets used will be tricky.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

You can try to polish your Superflexibles with fine steel wool.
Just don't forget to wipe down with some textile or soft paper to remove the metal particles from the string. At least worth a try. Probably leave the bowing area out with polishing for a better bow grab.

2 mm is a bit on the deeper side, but should work if it is evenly distributed in curvature.
I have 1 mm currently on my Stagg EUB with the rosewood fingerboard, starting from a bad -0.5 mm original, but need a bit more to avoid some string noise. So when I have some time for it, I will at least go down to 1.5 mm, maybe 2. Since I made the camber myself, I know that the distribution is even more important than the deepness of the camber itself.

But a real luthier seeing your instrument and showing your problem is a much better help than an amateur DIY bass setup guy like me who needs to guess a lot and who has a very limited experience.

You can press down the string in a smaller distance than the fingerboard length and move these pressure points in parallel along the fingerboard and watch the gap. If it changes quickly at some point, the camber is not well distributed.
The very end of the fingerboard doesn't need the camber, because the fingerboard string angle when pressed down over there is much higher than at lower positions. It's more a thing from the nut up past the octave, probably towards the duodecime. After that point the fingerboard could be left plan. At least that is what I found out for me.

 

[David Potts]

Stand behind your bass on a carpeted floor and step backwards, leaning the bass back until you can sight down the length of the neck from the scroll towards the bridge. Sight down the side of the neck where it meets the fingerboard. This should be a straight line. If the neck and fingerboard are bending forward you will see the curve there. JoeyNaeger's graphite rod implant becomes a viable solution if so.

Cheers, DP

 

[groooooove]

can anyone attest to how much of a difference fingerboard relief can make?

the bass sounds good now. i've got Zyex lights on it and they made a nice difference. but, there is still a hint of that tightness in the pizz sound. the arco sound, as always, is top notch.

would a closer-to-flat fingerboard give this bass more growl for pizz playing (in exchange for buzzing when playing arco?)

also since Arnold was able to sniff out the fingerboard as the problem from my original sound file, i have a feeling this may be significant.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I think the growl comes more from the power distribution of the harmonics in the string than the flatness or camber of the fingerboard. Probably also with the decay of the higher harmonics over time due to the damping of the string.
A (multifilament) synthetic core damps the string much more than a spiral steel core.

 

[groooooove]

this is a photo of the fingerboard relief. i checked the yard stick before using it and it's straight. the picture is showing the highest relief, which is right near the octave.

i know my original post is about soundposts, and now we're basically talking setup in genneral, but i still think this stuff has value.

i don't know whats considered a lot or a little, or what other variables there could be in play here. could this be the "too much camber" some have mentioned, and would leveling that out help add some sustain and/or growl?