Double Bass Stupid Newbie Question: counting rhythm in Bluegrass

[GeraldB]

In looking at beginner stuff for the bass, I've seen conflicting versions of counting. Some say "play root-five on the 1st and 3rd beats, leaving room for the mandolin chop on 2 and 4." Other's say "play on every beat," so the count would be 1(root) and(chop) 2(fifth) and(chop) 3(root) and(chop) 4(fifth) and(chop).

So, am I playing 1-2-3-4, or 1--3--1--3?

I'm beginning to suspect that the answer is this: Bluegrass is an aural tradition. There is more than one correct way to transcribe the music that you hear, and both of the above are correct.

 

[SAlcott]

1-2 1-2 in 2/2.

 

[mark286]

In looking at beginner stuff for the bass, I've seen conflicting versions of counting. Some say "play root-five on the 1st and 3rd beats, leaving room for the mandolin chop on 2 and 4." Other's say "play on every beat," so the count would be 1(root) and(chop) 2(fifth) and(chop) 3(root) and(chop) 4(fifth) and(chop).

So, am I playing 1-2-3-4, or 1--3--1--3?

I'm beginning to suspect that the answer is this: Bluegrass is an aural tradition. There is more than one correct way to transcribe the music that you hear, and both of the above are correct.

Yes, there is more than one way to count -- two beats or four per measure being the most common in bluegrass IME. Thus, you feel the rhythm as "1 and 2 and" where the bass plays on beats 1 and 2 and the mandolin chops on each "and."

For four beats, the bass plays on 1 and 3 and the mandolin chops on 2 and 4. Either way of counting gives the "boom chick" rhythm feel for bluegrass. The bass player "booms" and the mandolin "chicks."

The bass player often does alternate roots and fifths on each "boom," but it is also common to play two roots in row on each "boom." For example, the bass may do this for the 1 chord prior to switching to the 5 chord so that it doesn't feel that the change to the 5 chord is early in the progression. Some fiddle tunes also sound right to my ear with just root notes.

 

[AGCurry]

@mark286 's explanation is good. IMO option #1 is better - it's truer to the "boom-chik" feel.

Then, of course, there are the many waltzes. Unless you want to walk them like the Stanley Brothers, you will play on "1."

 

[Ed S]

I regularly drive my wife and others nuts saying I don't "get" cut time! Of course, that is just one on a LONG list of musical notation that I don't understand - and as a BG bassist - could largely remain ignorant of.

 

[AGCurry]

I regularly drive my wife and others nuts saying I don't "get" cut time! Of course, that is just one on a LONG list of musical notation that I don't understand - and as a BG bassist - could largely remain ignorant of.

Well, how many bluegrassers actually read bluegrass sheet music? Maybe the fiddlers, but only a few.

Yes, you CAN write boom-chick bluegrass songs in cut time, but IMO it's not as useful as 2/4 ... it just looks kinda funny that an insanely-fast tempo should have half notes in the bass... and those fast banjo/mandolin/fiddle licks look "truer" somehow as 16th notes.

 

[Ed S]

Well, how many bluegrassers actually read bluegrass sheet music? Maybe the fiddlers, but only a few.
...

As I've said, I've recently been trying to play some orchestral ensemble. Our 2d fiddle is a HS orch director. I'm always driving him nuts w/ my questions/comments such as:
"There is NO C-flat!"
"Why not just write it in 4/4 and have half as many measures?"
"I don't allow fermata - they are too ambiguous!"

I remember one time at our jam, I called Old Slew Foot. After, one fiddler obviously wasn't satisfied, b/c he said it was "supposed to be played in cut time." My rock-solid rhythm guitarist and I just looked at each other and said, "Huh? Does that mean he wants it to go faster?"

Yes - I'm well aware that music theory is on my LONG list of things I need to work on!

 

[Hammertime3]

Been around bluegrass all of my long life, and I've never heard the term "cut time". What am I missing?

 

[themarshall]

I think it’s illegal to have a rhythmic discussion regarding bluegrass without mentioning playing on the front of the beat. So: front of the beat

 

[Sam Reese]

I didn't know I'm suppose to count in bluegrass. That seems inherently strange. Ask "how fast?" get answer and go "tick-tock..." EZ peezy

 

[AGCurry]

I didn't know I'm suppose to count in bluegrass. That seems inherently strange. Ask "how fast?" get answer and go "tick-tock..." EZ peezy

Well, yeah ... leave the counting to the rare fiddler who learns the tune from sheet music. If the bass player is counting, she's probably behind the beat ...

 

[AGCurry]

As I've said, I've recently been trying to play some orchestral ensemble. Our 2d fiddle is a HS orch director. I'm always driving him nuts w/ my questions/comments such as:
"There is NO C-flat!"
"Why not just write it in 4/4 and have half as many measures?"
"I don't allow fermata - they are too ambiguous!"

I hope these are questions that you and he can laugh about!

After most of a lifetime playing by ear, I became the leader of a group that needs sheet music, and I joined an amateur orchestra. Each camp holds truths not readily grasped by the other... it's time to demonstrate your openness to learning the other camp's truths - as well as showing by example how you can do things based on what you hear. There's little to be gained by provocation.

 

[turf3]

Bluegrass, country and trad jazz can be played "in two" or "in four". Strictly speaking, the tunes in two are related to the march tradition where everything was written "cut time" - 2/2, because a marching soldier has two feet. Marches aren't written in 2/4 because on the fingerbusters you end up with tons of sixteenth notes - write them in 2/2 and a bunch of flags go away from the notation - what would an eighth in 2/4 is now written as a quarter which is a lot easier to read if Maestro Sousa just handed out the hand-copied parts for the march he finished at 1:00 am this morning, and the band is going to sightread the new march at full tempo - "One! Two! One! Two!"

Sometime in the late 20s, jazz players began playing "in four", i.e., twice as many bass notes in the same amount of time. This was highly influential on country music to the point that since the 50s most mainstream country is played in four. The feel difference between four and two is extremely discernible.

Bluegrass has largely remained "in two".

The problem comes when you try to notate it. Younger musicians, especially with a jazz or popular music background, will tend to think "half notes in four", write it in 4/4, and think of traditional bluegrass bass notes as occurring on 1 and 3, with the offbeat chops on 2 and 4 (just like when you're supposed to clap). Older musicians, traditionalists, and those without a lot of theory background, are likely to think "in two" and think of traditional bluegrass bass as playing on 1 and 2 of a measure that contains two beats, and the chops occurring in between those two beats.

In more modern forms of bluegrass, as well as a lot of trad jazz and country, it's quite common to play the first verse and chorus in two, then in four for solos and subsequent choruses with a return to two for later verses.

The thing that drives me nuts is when the tempo is slow, I'm playing in four, and someone says "you're playing it too fast" so I slow down. No, they want me to go into two.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Don't count. Listen and feel it. These are all good answers but I would start by listening to the best recordings you can get your hands on and imitate them, play along with them. 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 are not going to save you if you've got no feel. Unless you are speaking of writing the tunes out the question is a little unsettling to me! Ha!
There's a lot more freedom in those two beats than you might imagine. I/V sure. But HOW you play that I/V and then what you do with it is where you will find the life in it. No two I/V's are alike. Start focusing on a few of the top players and then players that make you move. The secret is in the sauce.

 

[Sam Reese]

Tick-e-and-a Tock...ok, to be fair regarding written stuff. Yes, I think I'd like to see Edgar Meyer's sheet music for Goat Road tunes, but Rocky Top, Glendale Train, Foggy Mountain Breakdown and the like...no notation just interpretation. Just for the record, the first bluegrass musician I ever met was Bill Monroe! "Muttonchops" Monroe as I recall

 

[james condino]

I call C flat and F flat all of the time on my jazz gigs just to pi$$ off the music school wankerzzz; 'works beyond my best expectations!

 

[turf3]

Not bluegrass, but one of my favorite bandstand smart remarks comes when someone calls "C Jam Blues":

"What key?"

 

[Ed S]

I hope these are questions that you and he can laugh about!

Through playing together over the past year, he has become one of my wife's and my best friends. We laugh all the time, and give each other a hard time about all manner of things.

In addition to the school orch, he also leads their jazz band. He's a great source of info - but I've got to admit, much of it doesn't stick w/ me. He doesn't mind my questions at all. He's used to the same sorts or questions from his freshmen. And while he teaches us all this advanced theory, we got to educate him in the ways of the "foot"!

 

[AGCurry]

I call C flat and F flat all of the time on my jazz gigs just to pi$$ off the music school wankerzzz; 'works beyond my best expectations!

Well, there is a key of Cb...

 

[Jason Sypher]

Not bluegrass, but one of my favorite bandstand smart remarks comes when someone calls "C Jam Blues":

"What key?"

I can't remember the last time someone told me what key something was on the bandstand. It's sort of expected that you just hear it! Ha! Not kind, but quite normal.