Hello all, I am curious as to why I never see or hear of anyone running a sub with there bass rig? ..is there an unspoken rule or? ......I know my rig sounds satisfactory from low b on up but when I plug into the house DI and the subs come to life it really completes/fills the low end nicely....which is why I say my rig that used to seem superb and full is now just "satisfactory".,. . ....So,,... what does an audio tech or "sound guy" really need or prefer from a bassist....I am not declaring it right or wrong but my ears tell me even a small sub could be a tremendous help to any bass rig...all feedback is much appreciated.
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Sub or No?
- Thread starter Mrb1268
- Start date
Subs are not needed with most bass rigs. They just tend to muddy up the overall sound when used outside the PA system.
I ran PAs doing design, construction, hire and FOH for many years, and as a general rule, less than 40Hz on stage is a pain. It muddies the sound and plays havoc with sympathetic vibrations (depends on individual stage). Most PAs don't do much below 40Hz as well as it's a power suck, they usually require larger enclosures or more power (Hoffman's Iron Law) and there is little actual informational content down there in most amplified music.
It's also worth noting that on electric basses that below A on E1 string the 2nd harmonic is the dominant tonal determinant so building a huge, or power sucking rig to get a fundamental on B0 is a waste of time. You can prove this to yourself by recording individual notes and looking at the spectrum in something like Audacity if you don't have anything else. Most classis bass cabs like SVTs rolloff well above 41Hz, usually somewhere around 70Hz and some even higher.
It's also worth noting that on electric basses that below A on E1 string the 2nd harmonic is the dominant tonal determinant so building a huge, or power sucking rig to get a fundamental on B0 is a waste of time. You can prove this to yourself by recording individual notes and looking at the spectrum in something like Audacity if you don't have anything else. Most classis bass cabs like SVTs rolloff well above 41Hz, usually somewhere around 70Hz and some even higher.
Yeah @A9X is onto something. Go the other way. Run an HPF to chop off some low fundamentals. Let the sound guy use your tight, focused signal to do with as he/she sees fit.
We are not "bass" players, we're "low mid" players.
s0c9
Supporting Member
I understand most of the comments here, and usually decouple my speakers from the deck on stages. That being said, when I go wireless out in the audience, where there's a good PA and a good engineer, those lower frequencies add a warmth and presence that I find very pleasing. Could be the "power" going to my head, but it's drool worthy none the less.
IMO that's the dirty little secret WRT many bass cabinets. I took measurements of my Aguilar GS112 and Genzler 12-3 cabinets with REW, and both fell like a brick below 80 Hz. Gotta wonder where they come up with those specs showing extension down to 40 Hz. I highly suspect most cabinets are the same way, except maybe for some from Acme, AccuGroove and similar designs.
Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Pedulla Club #45
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Here's a recent thread on the topic. Short and to the point.
Turbosound iQ18B subwoofer with Rickenbacher Bass for live gigs
Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Turbosound iQ18B subwoofer with Rickenbacher Bass for live gigs
I'm guessing that those 40hz cab ratings are @ -10dB which is still there but pretty far down as far as being audible. Of course, this is probably generally a good thing because of the other good comments about that Hz range being pretty muddy. This is one reason that on-board or pedal HPF's are getting to be so popular ... they can really take the mud out of your rig and let it focus on the Hz range that makes way more sense for live bass (other than certain forms a super bass heavy genres).
As few companies ever give an attenuation number, who knows what it is? I just presume they lie or deliberately deceive because most musos are about as technically proficient as most audiophools, ie, not very.
I'll have a large new measurement rig in the NY, so I'd love to do a data-bass type site comparing some cabs, and I will if I can get my hands on a few.
It would also be interesting to see how well tweets are incorporated into bass cabs, but based upon my own subjective tests, flippin' horribly.
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Wayne P, thank you for the "iq18b" link.....I agree 100% no question, I don't know the science of sub frequency but that proves to me my ears told me the truth....if the house has subs do not use yours, ....if they do not and only have common cabs on the poles ... add it to your rig but ONLY!.. if you understand how to utilize the sub properly. Sounds reasonable to me.
I'm hoping to try a single QSC K212C (cardioid sub) to SUPPLEMENT the deepest frequencies of bass and kick, but I'll be careful to place it along the leading edge of our PA mains, at least 8-10 feet away from any boundary walls, and possibly/hopefully time-aligned with my rig.
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What I'd give to live in a world where the science behind their use was broadly understood across the live sound industry.
That's the other "dirty little secret." Both cabs are spec'd to 15-16 kHz, but measured response showed they dropped like a brick above 4 kHz. Probably not that big a deal, I highly doubt any bass is doing anything worth mentioning above that point anyway.
Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Pedulla Club #45
My 6s have a lot of useful info up there as I used one of my small 3 way PA cabs (2226/2125 + WG/CP380M) as my bass rig for a long time and it was much better and more useful than most people think until they hear it.
WRT to tweets in bass cabs, I was more thinking how well they integrate in terms of polars in H+V to make it sound more of a whole. Most tweets are an afterthought and sound awful which is why many players turn them off.
