Sub Virgins

[fokof]

Is there anything we need to watch out for or to take into consideration when setting up with the new sub? Thanks in advance.

Since you never had subs before , cut 100hz and below on your monitor onstage ( some also call it a bass amp )
You probably set up your monitor to feed the room for lower frequency without a sub.


For the aux send sub thing , there a thing on a board called "HPF" , very usefull when you don't want to send low frequencies to a stereo mix.

 

[KingRazor]

Since you never had subs before , cut 100hz and below on your monitor onstage ( some also call it a bass amp )
You probably set up your monitor to feed the room for lower frequency without a sub.


For the aux send sub thing , there a thing on a board called "HPF" , very usefull when you don't want to send low frequencies to a stereo mix.

Most boards have a high pass filter, but often not on the AUX sends...

 

[uhdinator]

Depends on the mixer wiring. some auxes are pre insert and EQ, some post insert and EQ. Some are selectable (mix wiz).
HPF could be either depending on brand/model.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Haven't read the manual yet (but you know I will) and I was wondering: does the powered Mackie sub have a low pass filter or a crossover?

Edit: full range and high pass outputs for mono or stereo setups. Def'ly a crossover.

Riis

 

[fokof]

Most boards have a high pass filter, but often not on the AUX sends...

More often than not , the aux send are post EQ and you can choose pre or post fader.
I have rarely seen a pre EQ aux send on cheaper board.

 

[uhdinator]

Personally I would do this if running mono and you want to do aux fed sub:
1. IMO most subs can get a little honky/mushy sounding at 120-150hz
2, get a basic 2 way stereo x-over
3. Run an aux post fader to ch 1 in, set x-over at 100hz or slightly lower. Run low out to sub.
4. Run main mono out of mixer to ch 2 in, set same x-over point as ch 1. Run high out to top and jump out of top to 2nd top.

Now doing this and using an outboard EQ as well you would need a stereo EQ between the aux and main out and the x-over. Also if in a big boomy room cut some 150-200hz to tighten up low mids, or you can experiment with sliding the main x-over point up to 150-200z if no EQ and you will basically drop everything out of the PA tops up to that freq. Not ideal but if no EQ it can help.

The Mackie sub will sound better and not works as hard by getting only 90-100hz and below into it, and putting an active x-over in front of it won't hurt anything.

Then of course only send bass, and kick to the sub.

 

[musicman7722]

I agree and I used to own that system.

 

[nanookofnj]

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions. We ran the sub for the 1st time this past Saturday at a 5 hour Charity event to great success.

From the powered mixer we ran an unpowered signal> sub> 2 daisy'd SRM450 mains. And ran a powered signal to 3 monitors.

Kick and bass sounded great coming thru the sub. Stage volume was lower then usual which was nice on the ears, and the mix out in the crowd was the best we may have ever had.

Thanks again.

 

[jaywa]

Cool. Thanks for the update and glad it's working out for you.

 

[Texan]

Not to hijack, but who is running two subs vs one? This came up at our gig this weekend, we need a sub but is one enough?

 

[Zooberwerx]

Not to hijack, but who is running two subs vs one? This came up at our gig this weekend, we need a sub but is one enough?

I run two el-cheapo Yorkville Performance 18"s daisy-chained. More than adequate for modestly sized venues IMO. I voice them with a dbx auto-eq / RTA and then dump another 3 dB in the 65-85 hz range...can't remember exactly where.

Riis

 

[kpc]

+1 on the aux send to the subs....you can assign any mix in to out of the aux send. Much more control. I do it all the time.. just try it!

 

[marklaforest]

There's no right or wrong way to do it. Well, there are some wrong ways to do it! But all the ways suggested here work well. Basically it comes down to how hands on you are with your board and how much control you want to have. Running a main mix to the sub and letting the crossover do the work is fine, but if you want a lot more control and can afford an AUX send then IMO that's the way to go. Remember, with everything going to the sub you also run the risk of things like:

- Bleed from other mics
- Noise from things like mic stands getting kicked or hit (this is huge through a sub)
- Guitar noise from palm muting, etc.
- Feedback through your sub from acoustic guitars (also huge)
- all kinds of other variables that happen on stage.
- Keyboard players (the bane of my existence...)

So when you just have a bass guitar, kick drum, and maybe a low tom hitting your sub you eliminate any of these variables.

 

[Goodlawdy]

I run the sound from the stage in my band and my new trick that I just learned is to engage the 80hz switch on everything except for kick and bass. This cuts down wind noise outdoors, mike stand kicks, and onstage bass amp bleed through vocal mics.

 

[KingRazor]

I have a 200Hz high pass on all vocals. That has been very nice.

 

[Medford Bassman]

I use a MixWiz 16:2 utilizing aux-fed-subs, with two separate mono output signals: one high-passed to the mains, and one low-passed to the subs. I like being able to change the level of the mains and subs separately using only two faders.

Using this method, I could not feed a single ouput into a sub's built-in crossover and thence to the mains; I'm currently routing the two signals into a rack-mounted crossover on their way to separate amps for mains and subs.

We use a MixWiz:3, but I'm a bit confused. You say you use a aux feed for your sub, we do as well. WHy do you use one of the output faders for the subs then? Don't you control the subs with the Aux 6 master?

 

[Jazzdogg]

Just got back from a road trip and found your question. My MixWiz is a WZ3​ 16:2, which has three output faders, labeled L R M. The user has the option of routing the output of aux6 to the M fader.

I select and mix each each source (usually bass, kick, toms, and keyboards) using its channel strip controls. Anything that isn't routed through aux6 is hi-passed @ ~80Hz.

The band puts a lot of emphasis on rehearsing dynamics and musical presentation, so I like to add just enough volume for the audience to hear each band member clearly without creating an environment that's uncomfortably loud; my goal is to create the illusion of no PA at all. I use subs like the "loudness" control on a home stereo. If I do it right, everything sounds rich and full without being painful, loud, or drowning in LF. All but eliminates complaints about being too loud or rattling the windows.

Right now, I'm using six channels of 3rd-octave EQ for two main channels, a sub channel, and 4 monitor mixes. Mains and subs go through a crossover on the way to amps. Monitor mixes are hi-passed at ~80Hz; very little that goes through the subs goes to the monitors. I'd really like to replace a rack full of components with a lighweight digital unit, but 8-in 8-out is still expensive.

Medford, although none of this is likely to be news to you, I thought I'd supply enough detail to help someone who's just starting out. For those about to embark on the sub journey, remember that physical placement of subs relative to room boundries, and each other, is critical. I usually get good results with 'em clustered.

 

[Medford Bassman]

Just got back from a road trip and found your question. My MixWiz is a WZ3​ 16:2, which has three output faders, labeled L R M. The user has the option of routing the output of aux6 to the M fader.

I select and mix each each source (usually bass, kick, toms, and keyboards) using its channel strip controls. Anything that isn't routed through aux6 is hi-passed @ ~80Hz.

The band puts a lot of emphasis on rehearsing dynamics and musical presentation, so I like to add just enough volume for the audience to hear each band member clearly without creating an environment that's uncomfortably loud; my goal is to create the illusion of no PA at all. I use subs like the "loudness" control on a home stereo. If I do it right, everything sounds rich and full without being painful, loud, or drowning in LF. All but eliminates complaints about being too loud or rattling the windows.

Right now, I'm using six channels of 3rd-octave EQ for two main channels, a sub channel, and 4 monitor mixes. Mains and subs go through a crossover on the way to amps. Monitor mixes are hi-passed at ~80Hz; very little that goes through the subs goes to the monitors. I'd really like to replace a rack full of components with a lighweight digital unit, but 8-in 8-out is still expensive.

Medford, although none of this is likely to be news to you, I thought I'd supply enough detail to help someone who's just starting out. For those about to embark on the sub journey, remember that physical placement of subs relative to room boundries, and each other, is critical. I usually get good results with 'em clustered.

Cool brother, now I know what you're talking about. It sounds like our setup is pretty identical. I know the option you're talking about with the fader. For some reason, I still use the AUX 6 master control for overall sub. Maybe I'll give it a whirl this weekend. The A&H Mix Wiz is nice especially with the 6 AUX outs. The band is spoiled cuz everyone has their own custom monitor mix.

 

[Doctor Dirt]

If your looking for some low down kick through those cabs your gonna need to get that drum acousticly sounding great because those mackies don't get down that low and their internal crossover is closer to 120 than 100. I use a akg D 112 because it still has the most low end, and Aqur. Super Kick 1/ on the batter side and the Aqur. resonant on the front. A seperate eq for the kick will be helpfull because the eq settings for a great kick drum don't translate to very good sounding vocals. Hopefully your drummer uses thin shells to help promote a natural low end sound. The kick & snare need to be in the subs (snare if you want a fat back sound) the toms do NOT go in the subs you'll have low end feedback to soft rumbles from the after tone. Especial from the floor tom being picked up by the kick mic. A great tom sound deals with 440 and you need to play with that to dial it in. In a small venue I use an overhead mic instead of individual drums being mic-ed. Roll off the lows and again 330 to 440 is your area to search for a nice sound between toms/cymbals, it does work well with the vexception of the hi-hat being very clear and equal to the snare & kick. I've been handling the bands sound since I was a teenager and I've learned that the best EQ is NO EQ and the less is always more. You have some playing around to do, let us know how you made out. Doc
I mic the bass guitar as opposed to DI then start the board channel flat, its usually close to that.

 

[Medford Bassman]

If your looking for some low down kick through those cabs your gonna need to get that drum acousticly sounding great because those mackies don't get down that low and their internal crossover is closer to 120 than 100. I use a akg D 112 because it still has the most low end, and Aqur. Super Kick 1/ on the batter side and the Aqur. resonant on the front. A seperate eq for the kick will be helpfull because the eq settings for a great kick drum don't translate to very good sounding vocals. Hopefully your drummer uses thin shells to help promote a natural low end sound. The kick & snare need to be in the subs (snare if you want a fat back sound) the toms do NOT go in the subs you'll have low end feedback to soft rumbles from the after tone. Especial from the floor tom being picked up by the kick mic. A great tom sound deals with 440 and you need to play with that to dial it in. In a small venue I use an overhead mic instead of individual drums being mic-ed. Roll off the lows and again 330 to 440 is your area to search for a nice sound between toms/cymbals, it does work well with the vexception of the hi-hat being very clear and equal to the snare & kick. I've been handling the bands sound since I was a teenager and I've learned that the best EQ is NO EQ and the less is always more. You have some playing around to do, let us know how you made out. Doc
I mic the bass guitar as opposed to DI then start the board channel flat, its usually close to that.

When the kick drum comes out of the AUX 6, all I do is send it through the crossover then onto the power amp and out to the subs. The only EQ I have for the kick is the channel EQ from the mixer (High, High-mid, Low-mid, Low). The drummer is always telling he's not getting enough low end from the sub. He wants the chest thumping. I'm using a Crown xTi 4000 at 4 ohms a side (1200 watts a side) each side is sent to an 18in sub and a 2x15 sub. Drummer keeps telling me we need more power sent to the subs. One cab rated at 400 watts, the other 300 watts.

I should note, setting the gain on his kick is always a pain, I set levels at sound check, however, about halfway through every show the power amp clips into the red. I think he's hitting it harder as the show goes on. Last year, I had to replace the 18" speakers because they were literally ripped completely from the drivers during a show.

What EQ does everyone suggest so I can get the thumping he wants? Plus, is he right that 1200 a side is underpowered for the subs? Plus, any tips on setting the levels? They seems to increase as the night goes on.

Thanks.