• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Subwoofers for big bands?

T

Travisx2112

Mar 3, 2008
293
0
36
Sherwood Park, Alberta
#1
Hey guys, I went to a Metric show at the Shaw Conference Center on Thursday night. I sat on the right side, three rows up in the chairs. There's an are down below where people can stand and crowdsurf or whatever. So I wasn't exactly close to the stage at all but I didn't have a bad view either.

One thing that I noticed though (and if you know Metric's music, lots of synths and low notes from them) is that there was TONNES of bass! Whenever Emily Haines (keyboards, singer) or Josh (their bassist, some keyboards and backup vocals) would hit a low note on any of their instruments, my whole body would vibrate! I've never felt anything like it before, and I LOVED IT!!! Now, I will say that the sound generally wasn't that good from where I was sitting (very echoey) the low bass was just nuts!

When I went to The Police in Edmonton as well at the Commonwealth, I was down on the floor, and while Sting's bass was mixed very loud but I couldnt really feel it. Not the same effect. Rush in Edmonton was a bit different. I was leaning against the speakers below and at the front of the stage, so right in front of the barricade on Ged's side. Same thing as Metric, but not as prominent, as I recall.

So, I looked up concert subs on google, just out of curiosity, and the ones that I found don't go below 30Hz. How is that possible?! There's no way I would be able to feel what I felt at the metric show at 30Hz. Emily's synth goes WAY below that I can assure you. So whats up?
 
#6
Travisx2112 said:
Well what i mean is where is the point where you can feel the notes? Isn't it around 20Hz? Home theater subs, like the Paradigm PW-2100 I have here goes below 30 and I can feel it, you know what I mean?
Click to expand...
You can feel any note if it's loud enough. Anything from the low mids on down is sure to be felt at high volume. I don't have any way of knowing how low Metric actually was going, but I seriously doubt they had much going on below 30 Hz. That would be getting well into the realm of impracticality.
 
#10
Hi.

There's nothing really magical about it.

The chest cavity resonance is IIRC around 85-90Hz and stomach about 110-120 Hz. If You boost the latter more than the previous one, there's a distinctive urge to throw up.

Regarding the freq range of the cabs, unless there's an instrument or parts of the composition that is entirely on the sub region, the usual approach is to cut everything below 40 or 50 Hz. The low region eats INSANE amounts of energy and usually creates all sorts of problems, not just boominess.

When I was doing sound on some techno raves back in the day, I'd use about 20kW of active subs in quad arrangement for about 300 people. I'd use 4kW of the same subs in the same place for heavy metal and 500 people. The first case was on the limit, the second one had capacity to spare.

If You buy, download, whatever a test CD for audio testing, you can experience firsthand what the fundamental frequencies mean and how do they "sound" and feel.
Good chances are that the "ultra low home theatre subs" are relatively quiet by the time You hit 45Hz if you don't touch the volume to compensate. The same test can be performed with a PC/MAC and a sine wave-generator program.

A word of warning though. When testing, LISTEN and WATCH the cone movement CAREFULLY. When going below the tuning frequency of the vented cab it'll only take a second to over excurse the woofer and it's done.

Regards
Sam
 
#11
T-Bird said:
When testing, LISTEN and WATCH the cone movement CAREFULLY. When going below the tuning frequency of the vented cab it'll only take a second to over excurse the woofer and it's done.

Regards
Sam
Click to expand...

Thanks for all of the info Sam, that makes a lot of sense!! I guess that would explain why my sub in my theater room has long excursion drivers whereas my bass amp's driver isn't long excursion. It doesn't need it, correct?
 
#12
well, a bass cab driver has to produce a much wider range of frequencies than a subwoofer, so it is designed with that in mind. There are many pro audio subs that reach below 30Hz, but they're also very expensive, and you need lots of them. They're not easily found on the net but they exist.
And just so you know, most people can hear tonality down to 16Hz. Below that the oscillations are too far apart for the brain to perceive them as a note. Below about 40Hz, the chest and bones in the face begin to "hear" the notes, as the ear response drops off dramatically(but you can still hear it...) If anyone would like to challenge the fact that you can hear below 20Hz, I would gladly demonstrate how...in a friendly way. :) I'm not here to start a war.
 
#13
Most pro tour riders require systems capable of 20-20K hz. But, in the real world systems generally run around 35- 16K hz. Looking at SMARRT, you will see significant drops in SPL outside of those ranges. There are of course execptions to this, but generally thats what is happening.
Personally, I am not a big fan of super loud low end systems. I prefer a balanced approch. That is, the low end is balanced with the mids and highs.
 
#15
I always have a smile when I read about the low frequency reproduction in TalkBass , when bass amp is the subject.
A lot of bass players around here ( read; the vast majority) has NEVER really heard their fundamental "B"string.
Takes a very big amount of air movement and energy to reproduce that 24hz.....

I use Denon's technical CD as a reference , has all the sweeps , tone , etc.... you need , and then some;
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-Audio-Technical-Various-Artists/dp/B0000034ME
 
As an Amazon Associate, TalkBass may receive commissions from qualifying purchases made via links on this site.
#16
With our subs in my full band we can easily make the room vibrate... and I'm pretty sure they don't go to 20hz. I can feel the notes on my bass standing in front of the subs across the room (when the guitar player played it so I could hear it). So if my 75 lb Yorkvilles can make the notes "feelable", I imagine a ton of other ones can too. It's a lot to do with the EQ......
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back