Sunn 2000S bass amp query

[Jim Carr]

...The 2000S cabs I heard had a really loose bottom end. As far as construction goes, Sunn amps and cabs are second to none.

For me, I found that as long as it was not pushed hard, the vented 2x15 JBL cab was actually pretty clean, though with the 2000s head, there was a lot of bottom! My P-bass liked it.

All IMHO---and many years ago...

 

[chadds]

Any of you former or current 2000S users care to compare the tone against that of a '70s SVT--or perhaps a V4/V4B? I've been intrigued by this particular Sunn head, but never had the chance to play one.

Unless pushed hard you get a cleaner clear not muddy sound out that rig. Pushed you get Mountain sound. I would describe as distorted. SVTs are never that clear at any volume. SVTs when cranked retain the clarity they came in with, while slowly developing more and more distortion as the volume goes up.

 

[Ric5]

I had a Sunn 2000s in the 70s. I had a Sunn 4x12 cabinet with Cerwyn Vega speakers. It kicked ass.

 

[edbass]

Vintage Sunn tube amps are very clean if they are up to spec.
The power sections were straight copies of Dynaco circuits (the original Sunns actually were Dynaco Mk III or Mk IV amplifiers bolted into a box with "Sunn" on it) designed by David Hafler as a super clean, low harmonic distortion Hi-Fi amplifier circuit.
One of the raps against Sunn as guitar amps are that they are too clean, since the power sections were actually designed for hi-fi use, by design they get stupid loud before they break up; undesirable for most guitar application, but just ducky for most bass applications, which is the primary reason why old tube Sunns are mostly associated with Bass use.
Also, I think this Bass "bias" is probably why Sunns are so affordable when compared to other vintage tube amps. The big money is in the percieved "guitar friendly" gear. The plus side of this for us Bass players looking for vintage tube gear is that the guitar amps are the same design and components as the bass amps; i.e., a 100S, Sceptre, Sentura II, or any other Sunn 2 X KT88/6550 guitar amp is a 200S bass amp with slightly different tone stacks and maybe reverb and tremelo, any will work great for bass. The same is true with the four output tube amps; a 1000S is a 1200S, is a 1500S, is a 2000S etc.

I suppose it depends on one's definition of "muddy", but by my definition of the term; If a 200S or 2000S sounds "muddy", it probably needs some maintenance, most likely a cap job.
This is not to say the won't get rowdy, but I'd say it's more growl or roar than mud. I think of mud as undefined, listless tone, a well maintained 2000S with it's proper JBL loaded cabinet gets a nice tight bottom end out of those huge cabinets even at power tube saturation levels.
Even though the 2000S is only rated at 120 or 150 watts watts depending on tube or SS rectification, with those cantaloupe sized output trannies a healthy two cab 2000S rig will get vision blurring, punch in the stomach sound levels and still keep the bottom well defined.

 

[chadds]

Vintage Sunn tube amps are very clean if they are up to spec.
The power sections were straight copies of Dynaco circuits (the original Sunns actually were Dynaco Mk III or Mk IV amplifiers bolted into a box with "Sunn" on it) designed by David Hafler as a super clean, low harmonic distortion Hi-Fi amplifier circuit.
One of the raps against Sunn as guitar amps are that they are too clean, since the power sections were actually designed for hi-fi use, by design they get stupid loud before they break up; undesirable for most guitar application, but just ducky for most bass applications, which is the primary reason why old tube Sunns are mostly associated with Bass use.
Also, I think this Bass "bias" is probably why Sunns are so affordable when compared to other vintage tube amps. The big money is in the percieved "guitar friendly" gear. The plus side of this for us Bass players looking for vintage tube gear is that the guitar amps are the same design and components as the bass amps; i.e., a 100S, Sceptre, Sentura II, or any other Sunn 2 X KT88/6550 guitar amp is a 200S bass amp with slightly different tone stacks and maybe reverb and tremelo, any will work great for bass. The same is true with the four output tube amps; a 1000S is a 1200S, is a 1500S, is a 2000S etc.

I suppose it depends on one's definition of "muddy", but by my definition of the term; If a 200S or 2000S sounds "muddy", it probably needs some maintenance, most likely a cap job.
This is not to say the won't get rowdy, but I'd say it's more growl or roar than mud. I think of mud as undefined, listless tone, a well maintained 2000S with it's proper JBL loaded cabinet gets a nice tight bottom end out of those huge cabinets even at power tube saturation levels.
Even though the 2000S is only rated at 120 or 150 watts watts depending on tube or SS rectification, with those cantaloupe sized output trannies a healthy two cab 2000S rig will get vision blurring, punch in the stomach sound levels and still keep the bottom well defined.

Amen.

 

[GregC]

Interesting responses, everyone--thanks!

edbass--One thing I'd note that's happening now, at least, is that the Sunn heads ain't cheap anymore. The 2000S, at least in a couple examples, has gone for $900 or so on eBay. Less than an SVT, for sure, but a lot more than the similarly powered V4/V4Bs, which can still be had for $600 or less. I'd love to A/B the two myself, but I haven't seen any pop up locally.

 

[Lowbrow]

I had a Sunn 2000s in the 70s. I had a Sunn 4x12 cabinet with Cerwyn Vega speakers. It kicked ass.

I would have loved the opportunity to hear that amp through a 4x12!

Also, here's a big PS that should probably have gone with my SVT vs. 2000s post, but it was getting a little long-winded already.

I will say without a doubt that my amp received considerable modification during its days as part of the Mountain backline, and I cannot enumerate those mods. I can say that a mod added to the rear of the amp chassis was a switch that changed the amp into a slave unit. I remember that when this switch activated, the amp's power lights would go out as indication while the power tubes remained lit, naturally. It also has a voltage selector switch -- to compensate for when touring internationally, I assume.

The rig was purchased by me from a rehearsal studio in NYC that was run by a former Mountain crew member. This was a very technically savvy character, who when called into the room to attend to any technical issue would instantly whip out the screwgun and have things broken down and fixed in minutes, minimum diagnosis -- he just knew. You can tell he'd spent years in the road doing just this sort of thing.

This extremely good egg unfortunately passed away about the time I bought the amp -- the studio was liquidated soon after his demise.

Long story short, my 2000S was a working and touring rig, which was modded and prodded, and dragged across the world and back, and there's no telling what changes it went through in the process. But, although buried with my passed friend, I'll bet it'd be a great story for all of us at TB to hear!

Lowbrow

 

[Stumbo]

You can always stack a 2x10 on the Sunn 2x15 to get punch up the mids. You'll get the best of both.

I played the 2000s with one of the big 2x15 bottom for years with a "64 Jazz Bass (with a pick). If you cranked it (5 or 6) with the bass at 12 or 1 o'clock, yeah it would get muddy. I never needed to do that because the tone was so clean, clear and full sounding (with a bit less bass/volume) that I was able to play any venue unmiked with very full sounding low end.

 

[ryco]

The 2000S was big sounding but rather muddy; the SVT is big sounding with great clarity, and pumps out lots of bass without being muddy. The SVT beats it in volume, punch, and anything above 350hz. The 2000S was pretty quiet by comparison (mine anyway compensated for that in speaker area)

Wow, I found the very opposite to be true. In the mid 80s I joined a band that offered me the use of a late '70s SVT/810 cab and I could not get any clarity out of it with my P whatsoever, even throwing on the brite switch and rolling back the bass. I found the tone really muddy. After a week I told 'em no thanks and played through a Peavey SS Mark III.
I will say the SVT had the rock and roll "slightly-distorted-because-of-sheer-tube-power" sound and feel (which a Sunn can get, too), which a LOT of bassists really liked - just not for me.
I played a Sunn 200s (baby bro) through a Marshall 4x12 sealed cab for awhile and it was killer! Clear, clean, punchy and LOUD! I can only imagine what a 2000s would be like :drool drool:

and I often found myself using only the speaker cabs powered by a circa-1977 Yamaha B-100 solid-state head; I gigged with the rig regularly, and the Yamaha delivered way more clarity and a good bit more output.

Those old Yamahas were nice for their time! But you can't compare SS to tube. Like you say it's apples and oranges!

NOTE: my original post said $800 for the amp only, if you can get the JBL 215 box in good condition I'd go up another $250 (again start bid low!)

 

[edbass]

Interesting responses, everyone--thanks!

edbass--One thing I'd note that's happening now, at least, is that the Sunn heads ain't cheap anymore. The 2000S, at least in a couple examples, has gone for $900 or so on eBay. Less than an SVT, for sure, but a lot more than the similarly powered V4/V4Bs, which can still be had for $600 or less. I'd love to A/B the two myself, but I haven't seen any pop up locally.

I've noticed that they are rising a little, up from $700-$750 a few months ago, but still aren't at the level they have been in the past. In the last quarter of '07, 2000S heads were bringing $1300-$1500 on eBay. I kinda watch the Sunn prices because I stocked up on vintage tube Sunn gear several years ago with the idea of waiting a few years and making a killing. I did make some great buys, but I find it hard to actually part with them...
Oh well, they aren't making any more of them, eventually I'll make out.
By the way, I am a big fan of the V4's, but power wise I wouldn't put them in the same class with a healthy 2000S, a watt is a watt is a watt, but ratings can be deceptive when it comes to all out "grunt".
A 2000S is a real over achiever, particularly with it's proper cabinet.
Which brings up another interesting point;
Where are all the cabs?
You couldn't buy a 2000S new without a cab, or even two cabs. A 2000S, as with all like era Sunns was a set, you could buy an additional cab, but not just the head. There has to be a bunch of D140F stuffed behemoths out there somewhere.
Of course, there were relatively few 2000S rigs sold anyway. You almost had to be a pro to afford one, either that or rich.
A new 2000S rig cost the same as a new Ford Maverick in 1969, $1995 in 1969 dollars.
That equals $11768.66 in 2007 dollars.
Makes $900 for a head seem like a deal, doesn't it?

 

[Lowbrow]

I would have loved the opportunity to hear that amp through a 4x12! ...

Long story short, my 2000S was a working and touring rig, which was modded and prodded, and dragged across the world and back, and there's no telling what changes it went through in the process. But, although buried with my passed friend, I'll bet it'd be a great story for all of us at TB to hear!

Lowbrow

OK, just so I make full disclosure and don't spend nights tossing and turning - after doing a little Web surfing, I'm convinced that what I owned was actually a 2000S head with two 200S cabs -- the more slender 2x15s. These show up in a slew of old Who photos and one very telling Mountain pic, and I will say with certainty that they are the dimensions of the cabs in my rig. That's what Felix Pappalardi wanted, that's what I got! Naturally, this sets some of my assertions regarding the sound of a true 2000S set-up on their ear; please pardon any dust-up and attribute it to the ample vintage '60s shape-shifting haze that swirled around these amps! Groovy.

And, I did leave 2 identical cabs behind when I bought my set -- we (the seller and myself) went through all 4 cabs and loaded mine with the JBLs that appeared/sounded in the best condition. As you can see below, there were plenty to choose from...

 

[Jim Carr]

Vintage Sunn tube amps are very clean if they are up to spec.
The power sections were straight copies of Dynaco circuits (the original Sunns actually were Dynaco Mk III or Mk IV amplifiers bolted into a box with "Sunn" on it) designed by David Hafler as a super clean, low harmonic distortion Hi-Fi amplifier circuit.
One of the raps against Sunn as guitar amps are that they are too clean, since the power sections were actually designed for hi-fi use, by design they get stupid loud before they break up; undesirable for most guitar application, but just ducky for most bass applications, which is the primary reason why old tube Sunns are mostly associated with Bass use...

Most interesting!!!

BTW, I heard Dynacos many times used as bass amps in my younger days. They were THE preferred amp for all the serious bassists I saw in the Kansas City area in the early 60's.

I wanted one!

...I suppose it depends on one's definition of "muddy", but by my definition of the term; If a 200S or 2000S sounds "muddy", it probably needs some maintenance, most likely a cap job.
This is not to say the won't get rowdy, but I'd say it's more growl or roar than mud. I think of mud as undefined, listless tone, a well maintained 2000S with it's proper JBL loaded cabinet gets a nice tight bottom end out of those huge cabinets even at power tube saturation levels.
Even though the 2000S is only rated at 120 or 150 watts watts depending on tube or SS rectification, with those cantaloupe sized output trannies a healthy two cab 2000S rig will get vision blurring, punch in the stomach sound levels and still keep the bottom well defined.

That squares with my experience and definition of muddy, and some guys like a "large well-defined bottom."

 

[BillyB_from_LZ]

...

Holy hearing loss Batman!!!

 

[emblymouse]

God, this photo just hit me in the gut. When I was 13 and picking up the bass, it just didn't get any cooler than this right here.
Thanks for posting it!

 

[Lowbrow]

God, this photo just hit me in the gut. When I was 13 and picking up the bass, it just didn't get any cooler than this right here.
Thanks for posting it!

Sure... according to my deceased aquaintence, Mountain's backline would recieve a standing ovation before the band even came on stage! Sure makes something stand from where I'm sitting... Anyway -- remember Leslie's side of the stage too -- he used those Sunn 4x12 cabs that had the same dimensions as the 200S cabs with the speakers laid out in a sort of zig-zag shape, so I'd guess that the idea was to keep the backline looking "cool" by using identically symetrical speaker heaps -- stacked two high, two wide, IIRC.

Yow.

 

[Tom Howland]

OK, just so I make full disclosure and don't spend nights tossing and turning - after doing a little Web surfing, I'm convinced that what I owned was actually a 2000S head with two 200S cabs -- the more slender 2x15s. These show up in a slew of old Who photos and one very telling Mountain pic, and I will say with certainty that they are the dimensions of the cabs in my rig. That's what Felix Pappalardi wanted, that's what I got! Naturally, this sets some of my assertions regarding the sound of a true 2000S set-up on their ear; please pardon any dust-up and attribute it to the ample vintage '60s shape-shifting haze that swirled around these amps! Groovy.

And, I did leave 2 identical cabs behind when I bought my set -- we (the seller and myself) went through all 4 cabs and loaded mine with the JBLs that appeared/sounded in the best condition. As you can see below, there were plenty to choose from...

Great photo.
Felix sold me a 1969 Gibson EB-1. in 1970. ($350.00)
My first bass. (I was 15)

 

[chadds]

When I saw them and stood next to Felix at two shows, American Univ. then George Washington the next night they had this setup.
Three cabs on bottom, three heads in the middle and three cabs on top angled like a bay window. Leslie Wests rig was identical except it was a 100s setup. His roadie told me that the middle head was the control head and the side ones were slaved. They were marked this way with stencils. As I have said before I experienced major visual distortion from this huge bass sound.
The 200s cab was the more scientifically designed cab according to the brochure. So I can see it sounding tighter and more controlled than the 2000s. There is no way I am poopooing the 2000s! A rig with the 2000s head and two 200s cabs would be my choice these days.
I've played many a big rig. The only rig that can giggle the eyeballs the way the Sunn 200/2000s could is the IP153 with EX115.
I concur on the comment how good they can sound when in specs and how ordinary to bad they can be when out. Goes for most tube amps.

 

[BillyB_from_LZ]

...
Felix sold me a 1969 Gibson EB-1. in 1970. ($350.00)
...

And....do you still have it?

 

[Lowbrow]

I concur on the comment how good they can sound when in specs and how ordinary to bad they can be when out. Goes for most tube amps.

Yeah -- maybe that's why I always used the speakers and pretty much left the head home (heavy as heck, too!). Perhaps it was stepped all over, and possibly used as a slave rather than the "control" head you describe -- after all, it had that slave mod I described and from the Felix pic, those are 200S heads in the middle of the stack "sandwich."

 

[edbass]

OK, just so I make full disclosure and don't spend nights tossing and turning - after doing a little Web surfing, I'm convinced that what I owned was actually a 2000S head with two 200S cabs -- the more slender 2x15s. These show up in a slew of old Who photos and one very telling Mountain pic, and I will say with certainty that they are the dimensions of the cabs in my rig. That's what Felix Pappalardi wanted, that's what I got!

I've seen one "studio" video of Mountain where Felix had 2000S cabs, every other video or picture I've seen he was using 200S cabs.
It takes a very special occasion for me to actually haul out a pair of 2000S cabs, almost exclusively for outdoor venues. 200S cabs are way easier to deal with (and getting easier with each passing year...) and are plenty loud for most applications.
Truthfully a single 200S head and cab is enough to hack off the majority of sound engineers in a stage situation.
Solid state devotees usually think I'm jacking with them when I tell them it's a 60 watt head.