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Taking control of FOH sound

jdh3000

jdh3000

May 16, 2016
1,702
1,830
#1
Wondering how you are handling your own FOH sound.

This is really only regarding a bar room type setting without a sound guy.
Here's my situation. I make great efforts to set my sound to where it will blend well with the live mix in a 4 piece band.

I use a wireless to walk out and check the room during sound check.

I've been with this band nearly 5 years, but the last year it seems that the sound has slipped out of my hands as far as what's coming out front.

The drummer, who yes does own the sound system, has started messing up my sound.
He boosts way too much bass(because it's a bass and that's what you should boost, right? arrg!) and totally undoes what I've done.

The best I've been able to do is slip back and try to make some adjustments when he's not looking.

It's a touchy situation since it is his PA, yet this really wasn't an issue until about a a year ago when enter new girlfriend for drummer, and since then it's either him taking more charge of being the sound guy or her telling him things like the bass is too loud, and he runs over starts moving sliders... something else I have to fix.

I know in his mind the opinion of someone he is sleeping with trumps my 40 years of playing, but it's not really working.

The main reason I have a wireless is to be able to walk out and get a sound check. I'm not looking to be louder than anyone but to make sure the band sounds good.

I guess since he owns the sound equipment I have to deal with it, but he's not the BL.

Is anyone having to deal with someone in the band messing up their FOH sound?
Outside of quitting, what would you suggest?

I spoke once to the BL about the girlfriend having a say about about the sound(that's a conversation that should never have to take place), but ultimately nothing was resolved.

I've either got too much of a muddy boomy mess out front or my volume is being brought down.

I kind of fix it a bit as the night moves on but It's something that I should be able to take care of during sound check.
 
#2
IMO, it's a frank conversation. Look, if it sounds like crap then that's what the "soundguy" drummer needs to hear. If it's a situation where he doesn't believe you, then maybe you can find a way to get a live mic/recording device in the room to help make your point. It doesn't really matter who owns the PA, the goal of everyone in the band should be to create the best sounding group possible. If there's ego, PA ownership, girlfriend issues, etc. in the way, then as much as you don't want to go there I'd be talking to him/them about parting ways. I'm not old, and not young by any means but I'm not wasting my time playing in a group that can't manage to all want to sound good. As an experienced sound guy, I also know that sounding "good" can mean different things to different people so you have to make sure you're putting any preconceived notions aside. Not everybody mixes the way I do, but when the mix is offensive in some way it should be obvious.

If you are walking out during the show and it sounds like "_________", tell everyone in the band, be open and honest, and work toward fixing it. If it can't be fixed, you already know the alternative....don't play. I mix my group from stage on a lot of shows as well, and I can't tell you the number of times I've called up a show on our digital mixer expecting an easy sound check, and I get to MY bass channel and the first thing I'm thinking is "wow that sounds like @zz", and then I go about fixing it. It doesn't have to be rocket science but everyone has to want to fix things too.
 
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#3
Barisaxman said:
IMO, it's a frank conversation. Look, if it sounds like crap then that's what the "soundguy" drummer needs to hear. If it's a situation where he doesn't believe you, then maybe you can find a way to get a live mic/recording device in the room to help make your point. It doesn't really matter who owns the PA, the goal of everyone in the band should be to create the best sounding group possible. If there's ego, PA ownership, girlfriend issues, etc. in the way, then as much as you don't want to go there I'd be talking to him/them about parting ways. I'm not old, and not young by any means but I'm not wasting my time playing in a group that can't manage to all want to sound good. As an experienced sound guy, I also know that sounding "good" can mean different things to different people so you have to make sure you're putting any preconceived notions aside. Not everybody mixes the way I do, but when the mix is offensive in some way it should be obvious.

If you are walking out during the show and it sounds like "_________", tell everyone in the band, be open and honest, and work toward fixing it. If it can't be fixed, you already know the alternative....don't play. I mix my group from stage on a lot of shows as well, and I can't tell you the number of times I've called up a show on our digital mixer expecting an easy sound check, and I get to MY bass channel and the first thing I'm thinking is "wow that sounds like @zz", and then I go about fixing it. It doesn't have to be rocket science but everyone has to want to fix things too.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Doing a recording is a good idea... then sit down with him and listen to it.

Yes the sound of the band overall should be the only goal of any of us when it comes to mixing.

It wasn't a problem before and we were all on the same page. I don't relish the idea of leaving because I don't really think the motivating factor in this is going to be around forever. I know he's just trying to impress her, but in the meantime the sound suffers and it will eventually affect bookings.
 
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#4
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#5
jdh3000 said:
Thanks! Doing a recording is a good idea... then sit down with him and listen to it.

Yes the sound of the band overall should be the only goal of any of us when it comes to mixing.

It wasn't a problem before and we were all on the same page. I don't relish the idea of leaving because I don't really think the motivating factor in this is going to be around forever. I know he's just trying to impress her, but in the meantime the sound suffers and it will eventually affect bookings.
Click to expand...


Make sure the recording is from out fin front of the band not from the board.
 
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#7
I'm not just focusing in on the bass aspect of it. He does a fair job of level and eq on other instrument s and vocals, but I think he doesn't have a clue what to do with the bass, which in turn muddles up everything.

He relies on me to tell him about his drums, and I make sure his kit is in the mix correctly.

I now think I'll do some recording and that might shed some light on it. I just have to do it in a way as to not appear that I'm saying he's wrong, but just that something needs to be fixed.
 
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#8
musicman7722 said:
OH - buy your own PA and Fire the drummer :)
Click to expand...

I just sold all my PA gear, just to never have to deal with it, lol!

The keyboard player has a ton of equipment though if push ever came to shove.

We all gel pretty well so I really don't want to give up on it. He gas a few quirks but we all do.
We've learned to deal with the other stuff, but this is something else we need to address.
 
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#11
Probably not exactly what you want to hear but someone needs to play devil's advocate here:

An empty room will sound massively different than a room packed with people (or water based absorbers as an engineer friend of mine likes to call them...). A soundcheck in an empty room followed by a gig with no engineer to make adjustments is guesswork at best. It's obviously better than no soundcheck but it's still guesswork. A boomy bass in an empty room can surprisingly often turn into a great sound once the audience arrives. Making adjustments during the gig based on the sound on-stage can also ruin the FOH sound completely. Is the drummer's girlfriend a member of the band or is she in the audience? If she's in the audience she could be hearing things that you can't. Unless she's a complete idiot she could actually be useful. The only thing that matters is how it sounds for the audience. If she's in the audience, and also talks to others and gets comments about the sound, she COULD be doing you a favour. Or at least trying.

Also, trying to take control over your own sound IN THE MIX is rarely a good idea in my experience. Especially live when you won't have the chance to listen with fresh ears the next day. I've worked as a producer/engineer for years and the ONE thing I find the hardest is mixing the bass on recordings with my own band. It takes an enourmous amount of discipline to focus on the mix, rather than on my bass. It's the only time I can't trust my own ears and ALWAYS ask for feedback from others. After working with many bands over the years I see the same thing with other musicians. It's rare to find musicians that can completely switch off focusing on their own instrument rather than the on mix as a whole.

Having said that:

-It's never a good idea to get girlfriends too closely involved with the band.

-It's great that you've put in a lot of work to improve your sound and you could be right about everything you're saying of course. I'm just a guy on the internet and I know nothing about you band, your rig or the rooms you are playing. But don't make all your decisions about FOH sound based on a soundcheck in an empty room or the sound on stage during the gig. There's a reason why engineers don't go home after the soundcheck.
 
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#12
One clarifying point.

Does the band PAY the drummer for use of his PA? Does he get an extra cut of money? Does he get ANY money for bringing and running PA?

If so, it doesn't matter that he owns it. You guys are paying him to run it the way you want it run. He's a contractor at that point. So you can tell him whatever you want.
 
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#14
Just my 2 cents:

First - decide what is an acceptable outcome
Second - decided what you're going to do if you can't resolve this
Third - sit down with the BL AND the drummer and hash this out. You need to have an adult conservation with them. This sneaking around and adjusting the PA while the drummer isn't looking is really just junior high BS.

A long time ago I was working a job and was really underpaid. I told the boss at my review that I needed an $XXX raise. He said he'd think about it so I said, "No hard feelings, you do what you need to do and I'll do what I need to do." He looked at me and said, "What does that mean?" I said, "It means you do what you need to do and I'll do what I need to do." I got the raise, but he was such a Richard Cranium about it I wound up leaving anyway. I had the last laugh though, I got a great new job and he had to pay my replacement $5,000 a year more than he was paying me.

How is that story relevant? I decided what I wanted and what I would do if I didn't get it, asked for it in a calm, respectful manner. What you can't control is how the other people react.

Good luck, but please stop sneaking around.
 
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#15
I've done a few sound gigs for a friend. It's a fight when these people insist they know how to set the subs but all they're pushing is loud thumpy mud. Wasn't my band so no big deal but I believe FOH is a major deal in any live situation. If the sound is clear, it's much more enjoyable. That being said, most patrons don't care.
 
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#20
jdh3000 said:
I'm not just focusing in on the bass aspect of it. He does a fair job of level and eq on other instrument s and vocals, but I think he doesn't have a clue what to do with the bass, which in turn muddles up everything.

He relies on me to tell him about his drums, and I make sure his kit is in the mix correctly.

I now think I'll do some recording and that might shed some light on it. I just have to do it in a way as to not appear that I'm saying he's wrong, but just that something needs to be fixed.
Click to expand...
I had a similar problem, and I even started a thread on it a few years ago. The primary answer I got from the TB community was to get a pre-amp/DI and/or a HPF. I opted to get the pre/DI, and I went with a Trace Elliot Transit B, which has a 5-band EQ (there are plenty of other brands/models on the market that I'm sure will work just as well or better). This gave me much more control over my own sound out front.

Once the first set starts, you can take a casual stroll out in the audience and check the sound. If your tone needs adjusted, you can do it on your own rig without any adjustments to the mixer. So far, it's been working for me.
 
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