Taming an Ampeg HSVT 410HLF.

[Onomatopoetikon]

So, I acquired recently an Ampeg Heritage series 410HLF, as I wanted practicality married with low end extension and the Ampeg-sound. These things I got, but frankly it's enormously boomy and the mids are definitely more on the sluggish side. It feels like the amp is almost unable to control the cab. Now I'm using the cab with an SVT Classic tube head, and from what I understand, this might not be the ideal combo.

Does anybody here have experience using a 4-pro or other more high watt hybrid amps with this cab, and in comparison with the 300cl, have gained more control over this particular cab?

H.

 

[musicman556]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news....

But I'm the bearer of bad news. I had a Heritage 410HLF for 3 years. Bought it new and had high hopes. I could never get a clear sound out of it, and you really hit it on the head with "It feels like the am pis almost unable to control the cab." That is exactly what I determined with mine.

I used a number of amps in my quest to get usable sounds out of it: Mesa TT800, GK Legacy 800, Aguilar Tone Hammer 500, Warwick Gnome iPro, TC BQ500, MarkBass BlackLine 250, Trace Elliott ELF.

It's that upper mid articulation that's completely missing on this cab... I'd love to see a graphic response chart on it. I'm imagining a massive dip around 800-1,000hz. Like... HUGE, and not able to be overcome by amp EQ settings. It's like the ability to make these frequencies is just MISSING. Even when paired with the GK Legacy (a notoriously "sharp" and mid-heavy amp) I couldn't get a clear tone out of the thing.

I initially loved the cab. It sounds FANTASTIC in a home-practice setting, where I used it for the first year. Thick, rich, deep, and a great kick in the gut when you wanted it. It's when I took it to play at church that the problems began. I used to play at a smaller church where I was the only amplification, as our 20+ year-old sound system (designed and installed before drums, electric guitars, and bass were part of the service) simply couldn't keep up with outputting low frequencies at any volume. Suddenly, that "bedroom tone", or in my case "basement tone" was useless. When trying to mesh with piano, guitar, drums, and 2-5 vocalists, all note clarity on the bass was gone. My EQ attempts to get some definition were futile. I found myself turning up the volume to try and hear what I was doing but then it all just became a low, woolly, overbearing, and ear-fatiguing mess.

Crazy enough, I was replacing an older (early 2000's) Ampeg B series (the cheap line) 410HLF with this new "improved" Heritage cab. The B series was the clearer cab! After a month of trying to make it work, I sold both Ampeg cabs and got the Mesa Subway 115 and 210 cabs. What a delight!

I will give this caveat... I never tried the Heritage cab in a rock band setting. I didn't start gigging with a classic rock band until a couple years after I sold the Heritage. Maybe in that setting with some overdrive in the tone, the cab shines like a diamond! I just never got to try it in that setting. Separately, in all of this I had a back blowout and major surgery. That ended my days of schlepping 80+lb cabinets! My new physical limitations were a major driver in the choice to cough up the cash for some premium lightweight cabs.

Best of luck in your search. I'd really love to hear that you find some great amp/cab combination that satisfies your bassic desires! I still have a soft spot for those big Ampeg 410s, even though they never quite worked for me.

 

[Grinderman]

So, I acquired recently an Ampeg Heritage series 410HLF, as I wanted practicality married with low end extension and the Ampeg-sound. These things I got, but frankly it's enormously boomy and the mids are definitely more on the sluggish side. It feels like the amp is almost unable to control the cab. Now I'm using the cab with an SVT Classic tube head, and from what I understand, this might not be the ideal combo.

Does anybody here have experience using a 4-pro or other more high watt hybrid amps with this cab, and in comparison with the 300cl, have gained more control over this particular cab?

H.

Have you tried turning down the Bass on the SVT-CL, and or used a High Pass Filter?

What is the unique practicality of an Ampeg 410 HLF vs alternative cabs?

I don't see why one would first replace an SVT CL head to address the characteristics of a 410HLF cab unless there's more behind the reason to replace the amp head such as moving/transporting the weight of that amp head.

It seems to me the problem is in that cab, not the amp head. If it has to be an Ampeg cab, not SVT-610 or 810, I'd much sooner choose an SVT-212. I'd never choose a 410HLF cab.

I use a 4-ohm David Eden D410XLT cab with my SVT heads, but if I were to replace that cab I'd look for an SVT-212, Bergantino, or Barefaced Bass cab depending on my needs and budget.

 

[Onomatopoetikon]

Thank you both for answering, I think you're both on the money, probably. I find I do set the CL in the hi-mode, but it's not very satisfying. It does seem like I chose the wrong cab. I'd read the Heritage 410 was more mid-friendly, but I really don't think it is. I know it's never going to sound like an 810, though.

It could be the SVT 212 is where I should be looking ... or an Aguilar of some kind, if I can find one ... I play either a P bass or a Mustang with flats, and I like using a lot of effects, so the clarity is important to me.

 

[shoot-r]

use a High Pass Filter?

This ^^^^^

A HPF "Always On" from Broughton will most likely be the best and least expensive fix for a enormously boomy cabinet like the 410HLF.

 

[Grinderman]

Thank you both for answering, I think you're both on the money, probably. I find I do set the CL in the hi-mode, but it's not very satisfying. It does seem like I chose the wrong cab. I'd read the Heritage 410 was more mid-friendly, but I really don't think it is. I know it's never going to sound like an 810, though.

It could be the SVT 212 is where I should be looking ... or an Aguilar of some kind, if I can find one ... I play either a P bass or a Mustang with flats, and I like using a lot of effects, so the clarity is important to me.

By all accounts that I've read here on TB the SVT-212 sounds remarkably similar to an SVT-810 cab but in a comparatively much smaller and lighter package.

What you're reporting about your 410HLF fits the vast majority of all I've read from those who've owned or rented that model of cabinet.

Another observation: in the local L.A. used market there's pretty reliably always one or more used 410HLF cabs for sale on Craigslist. I rarely find used SVT-212 cabs for sale.

 

[musicman556]

The ideas to try a HPF are great. I never did that with my 410 HLF cabs with anything other than the TT800 which has an HPF on board. However, I didn't really understand how properly to use that function at the time.

I recently (and with more knowledge/experience gained in the few years since I sold my Ampegs) got a Broughton HPF/LPF along with the new UA1176 compressor pedal and it has absolutely transformed my tone/sound in ways I never imagined! While I still have my doubts that this pedal combo would have made up for the loss in mids/note clarity, proper HPF application definitely would have helped cut the fat/mud back quite a lot. That may have helped net a better result for sure.

I still believe that I am getting better results now with my Subway cabs and/or the GK NeoII 112 cabs I use most often (a little lighter and easier to schlep than even the Subways, but not as powerful.)

 

[Deleted member 271037]

I don't think I've ever played the Heritage version but I owned a "standard" SVT-410HLF for a couple of years. It was the worst sounding bass cab I've ever played. Extremely boomy/muddy. The mids were almost non-existent. I could never hear myself on stage with that cab and it also recorded absolutely horribly, the bass always got completely lost in the mix. It was also an extremely inefficient cab that needed LOTS of power to deliver enough volume, even for smaller gigs.

Some people seem to like these cabs (although I personally can't understand why...) but if you don't like this EXTREMELY deep voicing you will be much better off with practically ANY other cab. Trying to make these cabs sound anything other than boomy/muddy is a lost cause. At least if the Heritage version is even remotely similar sounding to the SVT-410HLF.

Using a HPF will get rid of the "boom" but it will sound completely "washed out" in the mids. These cabs are all about the deep lows and if you filter those out there's not much left...

The only fun I had with this cab was to turn up the tweeter to the max, CRANK the amp and watch the lightbulb inside the cab (that work as protection/limiter for the tweeter) flash in time with my playing. At that stage I didn't care if I blew something inside the cab because I hated it so much!

Sorry for the bad news.

 

[beans-on-toast]

It isn’t the amp, it’s the cab. LF cabs are generally boomy. A HPF will cut the low end. Reproducing low end robs your power. Emphasizing the mids make for clearer lows in the mix. That kind of counterintuitive but worth a try.

 

[agedhorse]

The mid shy voicing is a significant challenge to the HLF models. A HPF will help but doesn’t address the mid .

 

[davedamage]

So, I'm going to be the outlier here. I actually like the SVT410HLF with one caveat: I almost only use it in combination with an SVT115e and I love it. When I bought the full stack, I had already purchased an 810 and hated the way it sounded. I returned the 810 and spent an extra couple bucks to get the two cabs. That was almost 20 years ago. I have run a ton of heads, basses and pedals through that stack. Despite very rarely ever using it (I have 2x Genzler 212s paired with either a Genzler MG800 or a Genz Benz Shuttlemax 12.0) I have no desire to move them along.

The other not-so-minor detail is that I played in a LOUD post-hardcore band with dual 100 watt Marshall half stacks and a drummer that was an animal. Live venue recordings from the room or from the board, miked up in the studio, wherever... it always sounded great to me. Granted, I don't know that I ever used only the 410 anywhere outside of my house. Only paired with the 15.

Tl;dr: Consider adding an Ampeg 115 to it. They can usually be had used and cheap. Guitar Center usually has a couple, can be shipped for a reasonable cost and returned if you don't like it.

 

[Lovep]

The 410HLF is tough to tame, but its doable. First, your relationship with the bass knob will have to change. If you are used to boosting the LF...don't. I would cut the bass a bit and boost the low/high mids and add a high pass filter.

Also, I've found that at low volumes (practice/home) with a low powered amp (50-300w), you will have trouble hearing the mid freqs. I have found that at higher (gig level) volumes and a 500w amp, the cab really opens up and shines.

I've owned both the classic and heritage HLFs and I have never stayed with them. If you like Amgeg, the 212AV and 410HE are much better cabs if you want to hear the full freq range of your bass.

 

[Wasnex]

Tube amps tend to have less damping than solid state. So the amp is a factor. SVTs are relatively flat and have a gentle baked-in boost in the low mids. They have a decent set of tone controls but they are not particularly versatile or powerful IMHO.

From various comments I have read about the 410HLF, my impression is most players who love this cab use amps with big solid state output sections. An Ampeg SVT 4 Pro should help, especially since it has a graphic EQ and thus more tone shaping capabilities.

If your priority is huge lows, then in a live environments there is often a cost to pay in clarity and focus. My point is these qualities frequently work against each other, so you have to choose what you think it most important. I tend to prioritize clarity and focus, which often means running a bit leaner down low. That's not always a complete solution, but it's about the only thing I an do.

I think you have to consider your tone goals and try some different gear.

 

[Lowbrow]

OP your opening post says it all -- boomy and out of control cabs.

 

[SC Bassboy]

The ideas to try a HPF are great. I never did that with my 410 HLF cabs with anything other than the TT800 which has an HPF on board. However, I didn't really understand how properly to use that function at the time.

I recently (and with more knowledge/experience gained in the few years since I sold my Ampegs) got a Broughton HPF/LPF along with the new UA1176 compressor pedal and it has absolutely transformed my tone/sound in ways I never imagined! While I still have my doubts that this pedal combo would have made up for the loss in mids/note clarity, proper HPF application definitely would have helped cut the fat/mud back quite a lot. That may have helped net a better result for sure.

I still believe that I am getting better results now with my Subway cabs and/or the GK NeoII 112 cabs I use most often (a little lighter and easier to schlep than even the Subways, but not as powerful.)

I bought a used V4-B head a few years ago that came with a 410HLF. It sounded like mud. I replaced that cab with a SVT 212, which I also understand was designed to sound like Ampeg's Classic 810. It sounded great but is missing low end. Eventually I found a Heritage 410 for sale used and brought it home. So, SVT 212 on top of the Heritage 410 = NIRVANA. Best of all the worlds.

 

[Jeff Hughes]

See if you can get the 410HE. I am a big fan of this cab, and have never had a gig where I struggled to get comfortable with the sound. The only adjustment was to turn up as needed.

 

[MidnightRadio]

In my early days of bass playing, I bought a 410HE, but sold it cause I thought it didn't have enough lows and always wanted a 410HLF (I was young). Fast forward 15+ years and that's what we have at our rehearsal space (not mine) with a SVT2 pushing it. As much as I try, I can't dial out the boom or dial in the mids - not a fan. I would LOVE to have my old 410HE cab back.

 

[Onomatopoetikon]

Well, I used to play through a 410he years ago, and felt that was lacking low end. In addition it’s an 8 ohm cab and won’t work with a CL.

Anyway, the consensus from this thread seems to be: A 410hlf will always be difficult when it comes to boominess, and it’s mid shy, but a high watt solid state power section may help me a little bit, but try a 212av …

Seem about right?

 

[Ulf Buck]

That cab also sounds glorious and loud with a Mesa D800 +. EQ and high pass? I am sure you can get it there.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

Well, I used to play through a 410he years ago, and felt that was lacking low end. In addition it’s an 8 ohm cab and won’t work with a CL.

Anyway, the consensus from this thread seems to be: A 410hlf will always be difficult when it comes to boominess, and it’s mid shy, but a high watt solid state power section may help me a little bit, but try a 212av …

Seem about right?

I know what you mean. I've always felt that sealed Ampeg cabs are too mid focused (IMO a bit nasal sounding) and lacking in lows while ported Ampeg cabs are too boomy and lacking in mids. Lots of people love Ampeg cabs of course but personally I've never been a fan. I like Ampeg AMPS but I use them with cabs from other manufacturers.

This is very much a matter of personal taste and will also depend on your preferred type of bass, your amp, your playing style and what style of music you play.