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Technique tips for fast runs

S

Stevej66

Feb 23, 2020
57
21
Lancashire
#1
Hello everyone

Been a while since I posted, been working hard on things and I'm doing OK, especially pick playing. And Ross if you're reading this thanks again, your advice and video was a great help.

A new issue has now come up, and I know the basic answer is just loads more practice - I'm just curious to learn how you all approach it.

is the correct term a run? 7 or 8 notes, all the same speed (fast) usually a tone or halftone apart. The best way I know to describe it is the string and the fret number, so it might go G string 5th 4th, then D string 7th 5th 7th. De de de de de.

There's longer ones I'm struggling with too, but that gives you the idea. At proper speed the whole thing takes about a second, it's amazing really. I can't get anywhere near that yet of course, but I'm working at it.

The biggest problem is getting each hand to work in sync at that high speed, so I've wondered how the good players do it (Steve Harris in this case). Are they actually plucking and fretting every note or are they hammering some of them?

Sorry to swear, but it's like when I've watched a lead guitarist doing a solo riff where they're widdling away - surely they're not picking and fretting everything, they must be hammering somewhere? So can we do the same?

Love to hear your approaches to it.

Thanks everyone, stay safe
Steve
 
#2
Do you have a specific example of an Iron Maiden song you need help learning?

Generally speaking my advice for "playing fast" is to be 1) relaxed and 2) experienced.

Stevej66 said:
The best way I know to describe it is the string and the fret number, so it might go G string 5th 4th, then D string 7th 5th 7th. De de de de de.
Click to expand...

You can play all of that on the G string: frets 5 4 2 0 2 4

Try it and see if that fingering is easier for you than crossing strings. ;)

(edit) Forgot to answer your question about hammer-ons: You should use special techniques like hammer-ons and pull-offs because of the way they sound, not as a "crutch" to play faster than your right hand can pluck. At this stage in your learning, it is more important to learn songs accurately than to learn songs at full tempo. (You can use free software like Audacity or Garageband to slow down the track so you can practice along at a more reasonable tempo.) Steve Harris does use hammer-ons sometimes, but he is fully capable of plucking that fast with his right hand. He's one of the greatest of all time and there is no shame if you can't play that fast yet.
 
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#3
Thanks Mushroom. Oh yes, I know I'll never even close to his speed, don't even expect to. I've been a Maiden fan 40 years and I knew he was good, but this has just made me realise how even more special he is, especially as he's hardly ever stood still while he's doing it. I was just curious as to how you all do it.

Thanks for confirming about the hammer ons. I am trying to get it "one pluck/one fret" but God it's hard! I've tried different strings, doesn't really help much to date. Mainly because I'm what my old dad would have called hamfisted, some would say clumsy, or lacking dexterity is a constructive way of saying it.

I wasn't aware of software like that, so thank you I'll look into it. I have been able to build up to about two thirds of the speed required so far, on something like Wrathchild for example (and I always thought that was one of the slower ones!). But they sound really helpful.
 
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#4
Stevej66 said:
Thanks Mushroom. Oh yes, I know I'll never even close to his speed, don't even expect to.
Click to expand...

Don't be so sure, a few years of practise works wonders on our abilities. Not saying you will ever get as fast as Steve Harris but I can do a lot of stuff that looked impossible a few years ago. With enough steady practise for long enough, you just might get there.

Good luck and enjoy the journey.
 
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#5
I'm no expert, but the key to playing fast is to practice slow.
First off, are you sure you have the correct notes? Have you worked out the best possible way to easily switch from note to note so that you can practice with the correct approach? Now do it slowly while trying to maintain the correct rhythm. Remember to play each note at the correct length, even though you are going slow. As you memorize the movements, work on your tone. Does it sound right? Once you can answer yes to all these, you can attempt to play faster until mistakes creep in again. Reduce speed until mistakes disappear, then try at full speed again.
 
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#6
@WestyBassBob has it exactly right. Practise slow to play fast.

I used to play in a Maiden covers band a few years back - some of Harris' basslines are wild. But you can definitely get yourself up to that speed, fluidity, and accuracy - with fingers or with a pick. Stick at it :)
 
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#7
Thanks again everyone, sorry for the delayed reply, I only get the opportunity once a day.

The source is a book I was bought for Christmas, of 20 Maiden bass lines. In both musical score and bass tablature underneath. For anyone familiar, I think Aces High is a good example - in the bit between verse and chorus (the running/scrambling/flying bit) there's a run of eight notes, if the book is correct and it does sound like it. I can play it fine at about half the speed it actually is, but the dexterity needed to do eight notes at that speed is nothing short of amazing. Very impressive.

I have gone back to basics with it. Sticking to one song, a slightly slower one and played the same page for an hour last night at about half speed. I'll stick with it, loving learning anyway.

Thanks for your time everyone.
 
#8
Stevej66 said:
Thanks again everyone, sorry for the delayed reply, I only get the opportunity once a day.

The source is a book I was bought for Christmas, of 20 Maiden bass lines. In both musical score and bass tablature underneath. For anyone familiar, I think Aces High is a good example - in the bit between verse and chorus (the running/scrambling/flying bit) there's a run of eight notes, if the book is correct and it does sound like it. I can play it fine at about half the speed it actually is, but the dexterity needed to do eight notes at that speed is nothing short of amazing. Very impressive.

I have gone back to basics with it. Sticking to one song, a slightly slower one and played the same page for an hour last night at about half speed. I'll stick with it, loving learning anyway.

Thanks for your time everyone.
Click to expand...
I think a good approach is to break the song into its pieces. There’s usually an intro riff then the basic verse riff and usually a fill and run or two. Practice each part separately until you can play them well. Then start putting them together. For me that’s always been the hardest part but as with anything practice helps.

I would also recommend predating in short chunks rather than for an hour. If you practice for too long your technique will slip and you’ll develop bad habits. I don’t know where I came across it but I’ve read and heard this from many musicians. The best way to practice is for like 10-15 minutes at a time multiple times per day. Obviously if you’re working that may not be possible. But what I often do is practice a riff or song. Do some scales or just noodle for a bit. Practice again. Play a song that I already know. Practice that riff again and then take a break. Hopefully to repeat again that day.
 
#9
Thanks Bob, yes that makes sense.

Working in the day, so practice is always night or weekends. But I do need to break it up, and do other bits instead of slaving away at the same thing. Last night I was doing a rallantandowy version of Can I Play With Madness (don't laugh, it might catch on), never got beyond the end of the first chorus in nearly an hour's playing. But I was certainly better at it by the end than the start!
 
#10
Stevej66 said:
Thanks Bob, yes that makes sense.

Working in the day, so practice is always night or weekends. But I do need to break it up, and do other bits instead of slaving away at the same thing. Last night I was doing a rallantandowy version of Can I Play With Madness (don't laugh, it might catch on), never got beyond the end of the first chorus in nearly an hour's playing. But I was certainly better at it by the end than the start!
Click to expand...
Wow you are definitely committed. One thing that I also do is I'll put the recording on and play along more by ear than by sight reading. It's a good way to see how you are progressing and also can make you realize you may be further along than you realized. Apparently musicologists say that if you can play 80% of the song than you are functionally playing it and since no one can hear the bass anyway, if you cheat on a run or fil or just make up your own version, as long as the rhythm is true it won't matter!
 
#11
I'm either committed, or need committing!

It was actually listening to the recording that made me realise what a problem I've got. When I first attacked the book I deliberately stayed away from the actual song for a week, until I felt I knew at least some of it and could join in. I thought I'd got to the speed needed.

It was only when Wrathchild started grinding away, and I went behind time inside two bars, that I realised how far away I really was. Forgetting which the next note is to play doesn't help either.

That's interesting what you say about missing a bit of a run. I did wonder how much of it actually figures in the conscience, and if it was a possible to develop something that contained the important elements of the run, like the start and the end! But take your point about the rhythm, which would be missing if you only played half the run.

So it's more slowing down and learning it properly. Might have moved on to page 3 by next Christmas!

Edit to add - the floating thumb thread is interesting as well just below. I'm totally at a loss to understand how he finds time to mute as well as play at that speed, and I had extra notes ringing out everywhere. But although I've not been consciously aware of it to date, I think when I'm playing fingers I rest on the pickup too. So maybe that's something to work on to help the muting.

Thanks again mate

Steve
 
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#12
Stevej66 said:
Edit to add - the floating thumb thread is interesting as well just below. I'm totally at a loss to understand how he finds time to mute as well as play at that speed, and I had extra notes ringing out everywhere. But although I've not been consciously aware of it to date, I think when I'm playing fingers I rest on the pickup too. So maybe that's something to work on to help the muting.
Click to expand...

This is another thing that you practise slow and speed up. Practising it slow makes it part of your muscle memory, after enough practise. That's why practising slow to play fast works. It takes time though, you need to be patient. It might be next Christmas before you are fast enough or it might be the Christmas after. You have set yourself a mighty challenge, be patient, keep at it, mix it up with easier stuff to keep your motivation going and you'll get there eventually. Sounds like you're doing the right things, just be patient with yourself and persevere. Enjoying it is all the battle.
 
#13
bpc said:
This is another thing that you practise slow and speed up. Practising it slow makes it part of your muscle memory, after enough practise. That's why practising slow to play fast works. It takes time though, you need to be patient. It might be next Christmas before you are fast enough or it might be the Christmas after. You have set yourself a mighty challenge, be patient, keep at it, mix it up with easier stuff to keep your motivation going and you'll get there eventually. Sounds like you're doing the right things, just be patient with yourself and persevere. Enjoying it is all the battle.
Click to expand...
Yeah above all make sure you’re having fun.
Regarding what I said about runs. I mean you don’t have to play the exact notes in the recording to still play it. In fact sometimes I’ll play a bit from a song and decide I’m going to skip that ghost note or just sort of let my fingers slide instead of playing several different notes. Or you can even skip a note as long as you stay in the rhythm it doesn’t matter. This was one of the reasons I picked up bass. No one really pays attention to it unless you’re out of time or just amazingly good. So as long I’m a slave to rhythm (thank you Katy Perry) I know I’m doing what a bassist should do.
 
#16
Stevej66 said:
Hello everyone

Been a while since I posted, been working hard on things and I'm doing OK, especially pick playing. And Ross if you're reading this thanks again, your advice and video was a great help.

A new issue has now come up, and I know the basic answer is just loads more practice - I'm just curious to learn how you all approach it.

is the correct term a run? 7 or 8 notes, all the same speed (fast) usually a tone or halftone apart. The best way I know to describe it is the string and the fret number, so it might go G string 5th 4th, then D string 7th 5th 7th. De de de de de.

There's longer ones I'm struggling with too, but that gives you the idea. At proper speed the whole thing takes about a second, it's amazing really. I can't get anywhere near that yet of course, but I'm working at it.

The biggest problem is getting each hand to work in sync at that high speed, so I've wondered how the good players do it (Steve Harris in this case). Are they actually plucking and fretting every note or are they hammering some of them?

Sorry to swear, but it's like when I've watched a lead guitarist doing a solo riff where they're widdling away - surely they're not picking and fretting everything, they must be hammering somewhere? So can we do the same?

Love to hear your approaches to it.

Thanks everyone, stay safe
Steve
Click to expand...
Play it slow. Gradually speed up.
 
#17
Scott Devine suggests an alternative method for mastering fast lines -- i.e., too fast for you, whatever your level -- based on the idea that the problem isn't so much playing fast as it is maintaining that speed before getting tied up in knots. His suggestion is to practice playing, say, the first three notes of the line at tempo until you can play it perfectly every time; then add the fourth note, and practice the first four notes of the line at tempo until you can do so perfectly and consistently. Continue adding one note at a time until you've mastered the whole line.
 
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#20
Bob, you know what you said about sliding on some of it. Do you think that as long as your right hand is plucking correctly and at tje right speed, then you just slide on the correct area on the fret, and get it that way? At that sort of pace, would it be noticeable? Bad technique I know though, and not what you guys are all advocating above here.
 

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