The basic flaw in the p-bass

[deathsdj]

OK instead of an open discussion just revert to name calling ...

I guess P-bass with flats has a cult following that cannot even consider that a p-bass with flats is not perfect.

I like Ricks a lot ... but Ricks have flaws
I like jazz basses ... but jazz basses have flaws
I like stingrays ... but stingrays have flaws

Etc ...

I am not saying the p-bass is a terrible bass ... but it is not perfect. Not perfect = has flaws.

Every bass has flaws. Everybody knows that. I think it is just a matter of finding what works for you and not worrying about or judging what others do.

For me all I need is a bass with 4 strings, a P pickup, a volume knob, and a rosewood fingerboard. I prefer no tone to a very slight touch of tone. 95% of the time no tone.

But then I'm not perfect.

Cheers!

MJW

 

[Right_Butterscotch64]

I always run the tone knob on my P wide open, I have the grease bucket circuit on mine so I'm wondering what I'm missing from a regular tone pot. (Assuming I'm running it wide open 100%)

 

[awilkie84]

I always run the tone knob on my P wide open, I have the grease bucket circuit on mine so I'm wondering what I'm missing from a regular tone pot. (Assuming I'm running it wide open 100%)

Nothing. Tone circuits affect the tone when you roll off. They don't add. They take away.

 

[f.c.geil]

Actually, a wide-open Greasebucket is darker than a standard P circuit. I really don't like their tone, open, closed, or anywhere in between, which is why I took it out of my Highway One.

 

[jcanderson]

The tone wide open is still affecting the tone of the bass with the capacitor. The best tone of a P I have had is a P pickup wired straight to the Jack.

There are several other options that could be tried to minimize the effect of the P-Bass tone control when it is at its max resistance.

First, assuming the bass has the standard 250K Tone pot, replace it with either 500K or 1M ohm (but don't replace the Volume pot -- it can stay at its stock value). A higher value Tone pot will further isolate the effect of the cap, but you will still get the full range of original tone adjustment (albeit over fewer degrees of knob rotation) that you had with the original pot.

Or, if there's depth in the control pocket, replace the Tone pot with pot with a built-in SPST switch and wire the switch in series with the pot (Digikey probably has the appropriate part). Click off, and the tone circuit is now disconnected from the pickup. Click on, and the tone control is back in-circuit, should you need it.

(If there isn't depth in the control pocket for pot-with-switch, one could instead try adding a miniature SPST switch somewhere in the control area of the pickguard. Again, when wired up, clicking it off would completely remove the tone circuit from the audio path).

One caveat: I don't know if the Tone pot is linear taper or audio (logarithmic) taper. You'd want to get the appropriate taper.

 

[Bent77]

773 posts on the P Bass tone knob ... well, it is quite a knob. Really the only one you ever need.

My P bass has nice knurling on the tone knob. Sometimes I touch it just to see if it still moves.

 

[petrus61]

There are several other options that could be tried to minimize the effect of the P-Bass tone control when it is at its max resistance.

First, assuming the bass has the standard 250K Tone pot, replace it with either 500K or 1M ohm (but don't replace the Volume pot -- it can stay at its stock value). A higher value Tone pot will further isolate the effect of the cap, but you will still get the full range of original tone adjustment (albeit over fewer degrees of knob rotation) that you had with the original pot.

Or, if there's depth in the control pocket, replace the Tone pot with pot with a built-in SPST switch and wire the switch in series with the pot (Digikey probably has the appropriate part). Click off, and the tone circuit is now disconnected from the pickup. Click on, and the tone control is back in-circuit, should you need it.

(If there isn't depth in the control pocket for pot-with-switch, one could instead try adding a miniature SPST switch somewhere in the control area of the pickguard. Again, when wired up, clicking it off would completely remove the tone circuit from the audio path).

One caveat: I don't know if the Tone pot is linear taper or audio (logarithmic) taper. You'd want to get the appropriate taper.

Or an ON/OFF/ON DPTD switch, with two capacitors to choose from for less or more treble cut and the center for straight to jack, like so:

 

[jcanderson]

Or an ON/OFF/ON DPTD switch, with two capacitors to choose from for less or more treble cut and the center for straight to jack

Nice! What value caps did you use?

 

[Rev. Cornelius]

Other than the Duck Dunn photo, the time it took to read all 20 pages would have been much better spent practicing (w/my ash body, maple board, tone pot rolled off 25% P). What a waste of digital storage space.

Rev. C

 

[petrus61]

Nice! What value caps did you use?

Mines set up with three currently with an ON/ON/ON. A .047, .1 and .022. I still have total use of the tone pot, but sometimes I'll switch to the .022 because it sounds almost wide open, but less harsh.

 

[jcanderson]

Mines set up with three currently with an ON/ON/ON. A .047, .1 and .022. I still have total use of the tone pot, but sometimes I'll switch to the .022 because it sounds almost wide open, but less harsh.

Good. Is the 0.022 always in-circuit, and then you optionally parallel it with either the 0.1 or the 0.047,(giving you 0.022, 0.069, and 0.122 as the three resulting cap values)?

 

[EmptyCup]

My P bass has nice knurling on the tone knob. Sometimes I touch it just to see if it still moves.

 

[petrus61]

Good. Is the 0.022 always in-circuit, and then you optionally parallel it with either the 0.1 or the 0.047,(giving you 0.022, 0.069, and 0.122 as the three resulting cap values)?

No, but I suppose it could be wired as such with a different type of DPDT switch (I know it can), but the sum of these particular caps would fetch me something like a .2 total value, which is VERY dark and no highs at all. The caps all function as they would in a regular tone circuit. The toggle is just there to choose which cap I want. If I turn up the tone pot, the selected cap is "taken out", just like in a typical tone circuit.

 

[drTSTingray]

This thread is very enlightening!!

Back in the 60s/70s some people were bored and felt restricted by the 'two sounds of the P bass' - that is nice bassiness or clanky (but not in the same league as a Ric - listen to Roger Waters!!). You would also be in danger of being lost in the mix. That said some exceptional players managed to get them to sound great but within those two basic sound parameters - Larry Taylor, Duck Dunn, Jamerson, Colin Hodgkinson spring to mind.

I see the mods mentioned as tinkering quite frankly. The P bass does what it does very well but can be extremely limiting of a player's style. You can see exactly what Entwhistle's frustrations were.

Many people love the P bass as being the best instrument for what they do - but you won't find Wooton/Patitucci et al going near them for the same reason as frustrated Entwhistle 50 years or so ago! They are indeed limited in dynamic and no amount of tinkering will get away from that unless you go so far as to make it what it's not - and there are any number of off the peg solutions for that.

 

[petrus61]

This thread is very enlightening!!

Back in the 60s/70s some people were bored and felt restricted by the 'two sounds of the P bass' - that is nice bassiness or clanky (but not in the same league as a Ric - listen to Roger Waters!!). You would also be in danger of being lost in the mix. That said some exceptional players managed to get them to sound great but within those two basic sound parameters - Larry Taylor, Duck Dunn, Jamerson, Colin Hodgkinson spring to mind.

I see the mods mentioned as tinkering quite frankly. The P bass does what it does very well but can be extremely limiting of a player's style. You can see exactly what Entwhistle's frustrations were.

Many people love the P bass as being the best instrument for what they do - but you won't find Wooton/Patitucci et al going near them for the same reason as frustrated Entwhistle 50 years or so ago! They are indeed limited in dynamic and no amount of tinkering will get away from that unless you go so far as to make it what it's not - and there are any number of off the peg solutions for that.

I think it's a given that we won't be seeing a P bass in the hands of someone like Vic. The mods I was talking about are not meant to deviate from what a P bass is fundamentally, but to add one more simple option of versatility. While the P bass has a pretty rigid character set, there are things to do within those confines to switch it up a little and retain the essence of what it is. I don't think any of the mods I saw mentioned by others are trying to make the P something it's not. As far as versatility, music has changed since the P we all know today was introduced. On the flip side, I wouldn't be bringing an active Fodera or Stingray to certain gigs/projects, just as Vic or John wouldn't bring a passive Fender. Right tools for the job and all that.

 

[drTSTingray]

The biggest difference I've seen is between players of differing abilities and style. One of the best bass sounds I ever heard was a guy playing a new natural P bass in the late 70s with a band on an army base.

I don't totally buy the tools for the job argument. Few people played 60s R and B on a P bass in the late 70s or early 80s because better instruments had become available and were in use.

There is a lot of retro around these days. Some good some bad.

 

[petrus61]

The biggest difference I've seen is between players of differing abilities and style. One of the best bass sounds I ever heard was a guy playing a new natural P bass in the late 70s with a band on an army base.

I don't totally buy the tools for the job argument. Few people played 60s R and B on a P bass in the late 70s or early 80s because better instruments had become available and were in use.

There is a lot of retro around these days. Some good some bad.

Better instruments? In what regard were they better?

 

[thiocyclist]

Nothing. Tone circuits affect the tone when you roll off. They don't add. They take away.

Actually it can change the resonant peak and add small +dB changes to frequencies lower than the original resonance leading to a slight low-mid boost at the fully CCW position. This is a well documented phenomenon already discussed in this thread. It's obviously nothing like an active bass boost control.

 

[jcanderson]

No, but I suppose it could be wired as such with a different type of DPDT switch (I know it can), but the sum of these particular caps would fetch me something like a .2 total value, which is VERY dark and no highs at all. The caps all function as they would in a regular tone circuit. The toggle is just there to choose which cap I want. If I turn up the tone pot, the selected cap is "taken out", just like in a typical tone circuit.

Ok, got it. I was mistakenly thinking that the DPDT was ON-OFF-ON, But ON-ON-ON, wired correctly, does exactly what you're describing. Thanks!

 

[petrus61]

Actually it can change the resonant peak and add small +dB changes to frequencies lower than the original resonance leading to a slight low-mid boost at the fully CCW position. This is a well documented phenomenon already discussed in this thread. It's obviously nothing like an active bass boost control.

True and this is what I use to "cut through" more and more as opposed to diming the tone knob, which many tend to do (nothing wrong with it if it suits the music). I've always felt I could hear the fundamentals in my playing the best by rolling off my tone.