The fall of legends...

[Thundertips]

You left behind a 450 dollar bass?

Kinda crazy when I think about it... Haha. Probably wouldn't do it again.

 

[andare]

90’s is 30 years ago ... soooo ... how many decades does it take to be vintage ?

IMO a MIM Fender from the 90s is old, not vintage. Vintage to me means old AND valuable/good.

 

[thabassmon]

Unfortunately, I have to agree. I've owned prolly seven Les Pauls over the years including one now considered vintage, Norlins, 90s, and 3 new Tribute Ts. And the LP I bought two weeks ago was not on the same level as every other one. Took a lot of work to fix what I could and am learning to live with the rest. And the only other LP on the floor had even worse problems.

This, while even the Indonesian PRS SEs I tried appeared flawless. Someone has let QA slide in TN. Sad state of affairs.

Hope new management can fix that kind of thing.

It does make me wonder why?

All I ever hope is for Instruments that are made by famous brand to live up to their reputation.

 

[OptimalOptimus]

Actually, your last sentence stands in opposition to what came just before. If stuff is better now than it used to be at the same price point, then prices have come down!

Case in point: televisions. In 1980, a 21” diagonal CRT screen in NTSC format showed 260 lines per screen (technically 525 interlaced). And it cost about $400.

today, for that same money you can get a 4K 55” Samsung smart TV, one on which you can surf the web and control a smart home and do all kinds of things while enjoying dazzling picture quality, for that same four hundred bucks.

on inflation alone, the $400 would today be $1256.00. Now factor in the staggering increase in performance. Typically, NTSC signals had around 330 dots per horizontal line.

so then. NTSC: 85,800 dots of information per screen
4K: 8,294,400 dots

oh, and let’s not forget the surround sound etc.


that’s nearly a 100-fold increase in visual performance. Now the fun part. Ignoring all the smart TVs factors and whatnot and focusing exclusively on picture quality: today, the cost of that old 21” tv would stand at 68 dots per dollar. The 4K tv? 20,736 dots per dollar. That’s a performance increase of 305 times.

No.... prices do not go up on everything.

Technology makes everything easier to make and so elevates the quality especially of cheap stuff. Good and expensive stuff is still getting better and better and so follow inflation.

A 50’s Fender was one of the best bass you could have in the 50’s. It costed around 250 to buy a Fender in 1960 which is around 2100$. A 1960 isn’t better or equally made than a 2020 bass. Technology made it easier to produce and the overall quality is stable

 

[Cut the middle]

I’ve been doing a bit of shopping for some new gear lately (tax man was alright to me this pull of the lever), and I’ve confirmed something I began to suspect like 10 years ago... all new gear, it seems, is garbage or expensive.

When I began thumpin’ 15y ago, a new bassist could spend $1000 and get some really quality gear, brand new. Now, $1000 cannot go far at all unless you’re shopping used— and it gets worse, fellas:

-New Fenders (even the USA and Pro Series uptown girls) are just... shoddily-built. I played at least three 2019 USA Fenders the year they came out, and all three had problems that made my ‘90s MIM Fender look boutique! Think uneven and protruding frets, crunchy tuners, and really poor-quality wood compared to way cheaper models from the 1990s.

-New Gibsons (basses and guitars); if you’ve played a “real deal” Gibson from their Nashville days, you’ll know exactly what I mean. The new ones are just... well, the magic’s gone.

There are plenty more... now, I’m sure there are many exceptions, but I’m talking about a general trend. Soon, it feels like all of the quality instruments will be out of the price range of new musicians, and especially younger ones who don’t have credit cards and all that. I know these companies can make a decent, affordable product, but like with so many once-quality items, it looks like I’ll be stuck going used if I want craftsmanship on a budget. A true shame...

EDIT: I HATE PLASTIC. I EFFEN HATE IT.

A little off topic but sorta similar, but I remember having some non-fender/Gibsons in the 80s that were twice the quality at half the price. I still have an '86 Ibanez.

 

[devnulljp]

On the bright side, that also gave us The Heritage which builds some really, really nice guitars. Borderline spectacular at times IMO.

Yes, *those* are real Gibsons, built in the same factory and at least originally by the same people.

 

[ajkula66]

Yes, *those* are real Gibsons, built in the same factory and at least originally by the same people.

Most of the oldtimers are likely long gone by now, but I've played a couple of recent pieces and they are still very, very fine instruments.

 

[chadds]

Over here in Poland used gear is scarce and overpriced. Lots of crappy Squiers, instruments with weird mods and people who think MIM Fenders from the 90s are vintage and therefore should cost as much as new Players. Reverb is no better, it just drives prices up.

Sorry!

 

[Phlipper]

A little off topic but sorta similar, but I remember having some non-fender/Gibsons in the 80s that were twice the quality at half the price. I still have an '86 Ibanez.

My first Ibanez, an RG440 bought in 1988, was stellar. I've owned another Ibanez guitar and maybe 10 basses and all have been flawless. All my G&L Legacys ... perfect in every way.

If USA G&L, PRS, and Indonesian/Korean Ibanez, PRS SE, and lately Gretsch and Epiphone can knock it out of the park consistently ... Gibson has no excuse. And I don't blame the employees in Nashville. They only do what they can get away with. Production numbers at the expense of quality.

Shameful.

 

[BassToGoGo]

*Real* Gibsons were build in the original factory in Kalamazoo, MI, until the 80s when the company decided to bust the unions, screw their workers, and move to Nashville.

This is such a ridiculous remark. The remarks about the Nashville Gibson are the same that were applied to Kalamazoo when Norlin took over in 1974 (of course prices for Norlin era Gibsons are going through the roof). Nashville is where the Custom shop was originated. To state that the removal of unions (whether right nor wrong) caused Gibson's quality to go downhill is absurd. The Nashville plant was (and is) full of employees that the majority of are proud of what they build.

Management has been the modern era of Gibson's downfall (this being said some incredible instruments have left the Nashville Main plant, the custom shop and Memphis' ES division (which has been relocated back to Nashville where they were built previously) but with the removal of Gibson's CEO (Google Henry Juszkiewicz) the future looks hopeful.

Has the overall quality been first rate? I would say "No" but that doesn't mean all newer Gibson are bad.

I'm pretty happy about the new NR T-Birds arriving in 2021. I will be buying one.

 

[devnulljp]

This is such a ridiculous remark. The remarks about the Nashville Gibson are the same that were applied to Kalamazoo when Norlin took over in 1974 (of course prices for Norlin era Gibsons are going through the roof). Nashville is where the Custom shop was originated. To state that the removal of unions (whether right nor wrong) caused Gibson's quality to go downhill is absurd.

I didn't say anything about quality. But if someone is going to cry foul over where a Gibson has to come from to be the real thing, then you have to go back to the orignal people and the original plant, which was in Kalamazoo. It is a fact that Norlin moved to Nashville because of their opinion about unions though, and Nashville apparently agreed than a non-unionized workforce was more desirable. It should of course be obvious for whom.

plant was (and is) full of employees that the majority of are proud of what they build.

And?

Management has been the modern era of Gibson's downfall (this being said some incredible instruments have left the Nashville Main plant, the custom shop and Memphis' ES division (which has been relocated back to Nashville where they were built previously) but with the removal of Gibson's CEO (Google Henry Juszkiewicz) the future looks hopeful.

Can't say I disagree, Henry was a clustershag, but even so the new guy doesn't seem to be much better.

Has the overall quality been first rate? I would say "No" but that doesn't mean all newer Gibson are bad.

Didn't say they were.

I'm pretty happy about the new NR T-Birds arriving in 2021. I will be buying one.

Good for you.

 

[NOVAX]

I have this SR300 ibby? $30
A Gadow modified S4? $1300
I sold my 73 P and now play an MIJ PB70 and I'm estatic. $800
I sold my 72 Jazz and replaced it with an MTD Grendel. $600

The bass I want right now is a scratch and dent Epiphone Embassy in Sparkle Wine.
$399.99+processing.

Good stuff. Now. Then.
Always.

 

[ajkula66]

The remarks about the Nashville Gibson are the same that were applied to Kalamazoo when Norlin took over in 1974

The Norlin takeover happened in 1969.

of course prices for Norlin era Gibsons are going through the roof

That's what happens when a majority of real vintage instruments ends up in Japanese vaults. Vintage guitar dealers must have something to make money on, so they moved onto '70s Fenders and Norlin Gibbies both of which can be of very questionable quality, but hey, they're now old enough to be considered vintage. The actual quality of instruments has absolutely zero impact on this equation.

Has the overall quality been first rate? I would say "No" but that doesn't mean all newer Gibson are bad.

Anything made by Gibson in this millennium should be played first IMO. While the early years of Henry J's reign did improve the QC quite a bit over the final years of Norlin, the last 15 years have been very much a hit and miss in that department. And they're still not where they need to be.

I'm pretty happy about the new NR T-Birds arriving in 2021. I will be buying one.

Looking forward to these myself, can't say whether I'll be buying one yet. Must. Play. First.

 

[BassToGoGo]

I didn't say anything about quality. But if someone is going to cry foul over where a Gibson has to come from to be the real thing, then you have to go back to the orignal people and the original plant, which was in Kalamazoo. It is a fact that Norlin moved to Nashville because of their opinion about unions though, and Nashville apparently agreed than a non-unionized workforce was more desirable. It should of course be obvious for whom.

And?

Can't say I disagree, Henry was a clustershag, but even so the new guy doesn't seem to be much better.

Didn't say they were.

Good for you.

You make me smile.

 

[PhatBottomBass1]

Things are defiantly better to day than years ago. But, still most instruments start out in a conference room with a guy from bean counting and fleet sales and putting a number on the board and the committee goes to work making an instrument fit into the particular price point.

Here is an old "central committee" Bass produced in the USSR:

I'm sure things got a lot better after the Soviet influence was taken out of the mix!

 

[Phlipper]

Here is an old "central committee" Bass produced in the USSR:
View attachment 4156939
I'm sure things got a lot better after the Soviet influence was taken out of the mix!

I would TOTALLY rock that in clubs.

 

[Polkatronixx]

Things are defiantly better to day than years ago. But, still most instruments start out in a conference room with a guy from bean counting and fleet sales and putting a number on the board and the committee goes to work making an instrument fit into the particular price point.

Here is an old "central committee" Bass produced in the USSR:
View attachment 4156939
I'm sure things got a lot better after the Soviet influence was taken out of the mix!

That's a Тonika.

 

[A9X]

Likes Fenders but says...

EDIT: I HATE PLASTIC. I EFFEN HATE IT.

... oh, the irony. There's acreage of it across the front of almost all of them.

I've owned quite a few Fenders, MIA/J/M and apart from the Japanese, until the CNC era, the FnF has been mediocre at best. My first bass was an Ibanez Blazer 83 model, basically a P, and the FnF was better than most MIA Fenders I've had in my hands. Sound, looks, etc is personal but I'd have a lawsuit era F clone over most factor F originals I've seen. To put this in perspective, I've owned >150 basses over many brands.