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Double Bass The Jazz Waltz (Question and Answer)

R

Rompi

Nov 8, 2013
15
4
#1
Hey everyone

I've been recently trying to improve my sense of groove and my sense of internal rhythm. I've been looking at the jazz waltz recently, as admittedly, I'm not too great at playing outside of 4/4.

A particular tune I recently stumbled and have decided to work on was 'Question and Answer' by Pat Metheny. I have learned the changes, but it is the rhythm and 'feel' that I am having particular trouble with I've listened more closely to a couple of recordings featuring Larry Grenadier and Christian Mcbride and certainly, listening to their approach has given me a good place to start with keeping the groove going. However, I've noticed that I have a strong tendency to lose where I am in terms of the beat and often play lines that are out of time.

What would you say is the best approach to start improving ones sense of rhythmic feeling on a tune like this? Should try and play some strict patterns (for example, dividing the first bar into two dotted crochets and then walking on the second bar), or should I try to mix up my rhythms and use trial and error? Or are there better ways?
 
#2
There are a lot of ways to skin this cat. This is not a simple tune because the bridge switches back to 4/4 in the melody. A straight waltz like Someday My Prince Will Come or Alice in Wonderland are less challenging. When I first started with the tune, and even now when I play it with a band that's unsure of themselves going in and out of the bridge, I think of the bridge in 1, going from beat 1 to beat 1 with another beat halfway between because we typically play it too fast for me to count. Regardless of the tune, you can search the forum for Ed Fuqua's excellent write-up entitled How to Really Learn a Tune and follow it. I'm confident that will work.

This is what works well for me:
1) learn the melody. Play it on the bass, sing it. Sing it in tune. Sing it in time. Play it on the bass in tune. Record yourself and listen back a couple of days later. Were you really in tune and in time? I find if I listen to the recording right away, my ear tends to fool me more towards what I meant to play rather than what I really played.
2) Once I've got the melody, I play my bassline until it becomes 2nd nature. By the way, this is all from Chris Fitzgerald who has an excellent one-page write-up on his website. Sing the bassline, in tune, and in-time. Record it and check a couple of days later. Do you really have it?
3) play the melody on the bass and try to hear the bassline. Try to work the bassline into the rests in the melody. You're trying to hear both lines at the same time.
4) play the bassline while singing the melody. Record it, listen back a couple of days later to get a fresh ear on whether you're in tune and on-time with both.
5) play the melody while singing the bassline. Record it, yadda, yadda.
6) play the bassline while scatting. Record it...
7) soloing unaccompanied. If I'm having trouble keeping my time solid, I'll load up the tune in Band in a Box and have it play silently while I'm soloing to see if I'm keeping the tempo. If not, I'll try setting a metronome, first on quarters, then halves, wholes, 2 measures, etc, until I'm solid. Then I practice it until I cannot do it wrong. Even if I screw up, I can hear how to get back on.

Some of this doesn't take that long, and some of it takes very long time. It might be wise to pick a simpler tune to get the hang of the process and develop your musicianship first.
 
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#3
Here is an early version. Note the whole tune is in 3/4.
I would encourage you to begin by tapping quarter notes in "3" (away from your bass), throughout the tune to feel the steady pulse in "3".

I don't have a sheet on this tune, but I may sketch something up this weekend.
Do you have a sheet that you're looking at, or have looked at? Are you able to post it here?
Thanks.
don kasper
 
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#4
I'm pretty familiar with Q&A and play it semi-regularly with gigs in the last couple of years. It's kind of a tricky tune and a different animal that just any regular jazz waltz. I wouldn't call phrase in the melody as 4/4 over the "bridge". It's a big component and character of the tune and I think it would be a disservice to simply walk 4 on the floor. That would be completely out of character of the tune. It's better to just leave it as a "4 against 3" feel and try not to be more reductive than that. That part is esp fun to lock the hits with the melody and it really helps it take off.

For me, a good jazz waltz feel is to have a strong grasp of the dotted quarter beat that gives it a broken 2 feel. It doesn't have to be stated and can be implied. To me, Q&A screams for this dotted quarter feel but to mix it with a quarter note walk. It's a fun tune for a bassist but more advanced.

Certainly transcribing what Dave Holland does on Metheny's recording would be very fruitful in learning this type of thing. I think I did a bit of it as well. To me, Q&A is all about locking with the drummer and locking melodically with the soloist/melody while keeping a super strong pulse throughout.

As good as what Tom writes above about learning a tune, I consider learning and strengthening your rhythm feel as a separate exercise. It's a different rudiment, as is learning to play a broken 2 feel. Once the rhythmic feel is better grasp, going to learning the tune can be a lot easier. But yes, I'd also look at slower waltzes in the standard rep. Alice, Someday My Prince, Bluesette, are all good tunes. Take a tune that's normally in 4/4 and be able to play it in 3/4 can be of help too. If you're looking to strengthen your waltz playing, I'd focus on the standard stuff first and come back to Q&A later.
 
#5
I think it's worthwhile to note how literally Dave Holland outlines and supports the harmony - lots of very clear "Root" movement and definition throughout the tune. Playing "Guitar Trio", especially, calls for very clear support and definition of the chord changes, as the guitarist/soloist is not always able to incorporate full voicings while soloing.
Thanks.
don kasper
 
#6
I'm no expert, but here is how i tend to approach songs in 3. My trio plays Someday My Prince, Alice in Wonderland, Moon River, She's Leaving Home, all in 3. Strangely, my band grooves better in 3 than in 4!

During the head i tend to play the root on the 1 of each bar pretty consistently. Depending on the tempo that might be almost all i do. It works. But to make it more interesting, i mix that up with the dotted quarter feel that Huy refers to above.

During the solos i will frequently go into a full 3 walk. This can be tough if you are really used to walking in 4, but sounds great to my ears. Harder at faster tempos.

But by all means listen to recordings in 3, especially Bill Evans. Listen to his version of Alice in Wonderland and take mental notes of what the bass is doing. Scott LaFaro really takes off on that one, it's an exciting recording. Also Miles Davis' recording of Someday My Prince Will Come. That is a more subdued and classic example.
 
#9
QnA.jpg
A quick sketch of Q & A - no melody shown on the A sections, just on the Bridge. Note the whiff of "Giant Steps" there.
Also - Pat effs up on part of the Bridge melody the first time thru, (by a half-step!), so I took his melody as played heading out (starting @5:33).
Also too - what's with the kooky "Interlude"?...
Thanks.
don kasper
 
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#10
Hey guys

Thanks so much for the help (the chart was much appreciated Iona Bass!). Funnily enough, although I regularly play 'Some Day my Prince Will Come', 'Very Early' and 'Waltz for Debby' at jam sessions, besides listening, I've never made the effort to practice them outside of a jamming environment. I'll give them all a look, particularly 'Some Day', considering its learning curve is probably a bit lower than the Bill Evans tunes. Lafaro, as Hdiddy stated and as much as I love him, he's a bit beyond me! Nevertheless, it's always good fun to have a listen! I'll check it out.

As for 'Question and Answer', I've been using some of the approaches suggested here. I've learnt the melody, played the bassline with the dotted quaver approach, walked in 3 and then allowed my lines to be less strict. So far I've done this with just a metronome, with one click per beat so far. I have also just tried to play along with the recording, to see if I can keep a good line going in the context of a soloist. It's still tough, but there's a noticeable improvement. I feel like I'm starting to get a better feel for the tune now! I've left the 4 over 3 section relatively simple, mostly playing roots on the 1 and 3 of the 4/4 pulse. Am I right in thinking that it's probably best to keep it simpler in this section?

In order to really get this tune under my belt, what would you guys suggest? Should I space out the clicks on the metronome? Should I try to solo over the changes? Transcribe? Any other ideas?
 
#13
It appears that many music educators are taught, "Bassists walking 3 to the bar is old school and doesn't swing." A few years ago I was coaching a high-school combo. I told the bassist, "It's up to you to swing your ass walking three because the judges will stop listening and tell you that you're not swinging. But if that's what you feel, kick the band that way." Sure enough, we go to Berklee and the judge says, "I could tell you were trying to swing but 3 to the bar is old-school."

Point being, **** the rules and play what the music needs. Learning to swing 3 to the bar is a valuable skill and there are splendid examples of outstanding bassists using it in every era.
 
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#14
Sam Sherry,

Yes/And... the drummer will often determine what the feel(s) will be. In the PM version above, Roy Haynes never seems to want the bass to shift to "3", (to my ears).
He stays in a broken 3/chattering/conversational/reactive mode throughout the track. Maybe the large sections of "D" minor (in the A sections) and "D" pedal (Interlude) keep it from wanting to "swing in 3". Also, the bridge for Q & A is so brief, (and harmonically/rhythmically complex), that it doesn't lend itself to "walking the bridge". I think it's wise for younger bassists to take their cues from the drummer's overall approach, chorus by chorus - ( that is - looking for the drummer to lay down the brushes and go to stix, for instance).
Q & A, aptly named, is a odd little tune - not as easy as it looks.
Thanks for your time, interest and civility.
don kasper
 
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#15
Sam Sherry said:
It appears that many music educators are taught, "Bassists walking 3 to the bar is old school and doesn't swing." A few years ago I was coaching a high-school combo. I told the bassist, "It's up to you to swing your ass walking three because the judges will stop listening and tell you that you're not swinging. But if that's what you feel, kick the band that way." Sure enough, we go to Berklee and the judge says, "I could tell you were trying to swing but 3 to the bar is old-school."

Point being, **** the rules and play what the music needs. Learning to swing 3 to the bar is a valuable skill and there are splendid examples of outstanding bassists using it in every era.
Click to expand...

I love walking the 3 as a dynamic change during solo sections. I feel it really boosts the energy of the tune. Sometimes i will walk the bridge only during the head as well. For instance, in Alice i'll walk the bridge and do a broken feel the rest of the time. Makes that bridge really stand out.
 
#16
Sam Sherry said:
It appears that many music educators are taught, "Bassists walking 3 to the bar is old school and doesn't swing." A few years ago I was coaching a high-school combo. I told the bassist, "It's up to you to swing your ass walking three because the judges will stop listening and tell you that you're not swinging. But if that's what you feel, kick the band that way." Sure enough, we go to Berklee and the judge says, "I could tell you were trying to swing but 3 to the bar is old-school."
Click to expand...
That's the biggest bunch of b*llsh#t i've ever heard, i'd love to meet one of those "educators".
 
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