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Theory, or ear?

#41
Originally posted by FLAY HORSE
Ahhh! I knew it was a "She"!
Aight, so theory can help you with your ear. Let's get rid of this thread then. I'll delete it. But I'll let a few of you read this post before I do, so you don't accuse me of being a coward and deleting some thread that I have been proven wrong in.:)
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Actually, it would be better if you did NOT delete this thread, since if it stays around I can add it to the "Theory Links" thread when the time comes. (I do general housecleaning on the links threads every 3-4 months, adding things which could be useful for newbies to read, and HOPEFULLY avoiding discussing the same topics over and over again) So I'd be appreciate it if you DIDN'T delte this. Thanks. :cool:
 
#42
Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Theory IS ear training. That's the whole point. You label every sound you could possibly hear, so that when you want to use it, you know exactly what it is you're trying to play. That's why this whole "Theory or Ear" argument is so fundamentally ludicrous. The title of the thread might better be, "Target Practice: Using a Telescopic Sight vs. Using a Blindfold.....which is better?"
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Or rather, theory *should be* ear training. You're right of course, it is all part of the same skill. However, theory isn't always taught along with ear training. For example, in the UK, when you do Associated Board (AB) music exams (AB are one of the main music examining boards over here), in order to do grade 5 or above (the highest being grade 8), you need to take the grade 5 theory exam. This theory exam has almost nothing to do with ear training. It's mainly naming intervals, transposing stuff (all from written scores), musical terms, and the like. It's entirely written, there's no listening involved, and you don't really need any aural skills to do most of it. The only one part of the test that you need any kind of aural for is the "completion of a melody" part - you're given, say, the first bar or 2 of a melody (and maybe a bar in the middle), and you have to compose the rest. But it's still only 8 bars in total. And a very simple melody at that.

So I said that theory and ear training go hand in hand - because, IME, they are not taught together. Though they should be.
 
#43
Ear is crucial, not primarily for the bass part only though. I find having an ear for the whole arrangement helps enormously, to be able to listen to the other instruments and for instance better make a certain style work. Especially in a cover band. Theory tells you why it works and gives you the tools to communicate what you hear in a precise way to other musicians.

So, both.
 
#47
Originally posted by moley


Or rather, theory *should be* ear training. You're right of course, it is all part of the same skill. However, theory isn't always taught along with ear training. For example, in the UK, when you do Associated Board (AB) music exams (AB are one of the main music examining boards over here), in order to do grade 5 or above (the highest being grade 8), you need to take the grade 5 theory exam. This theory exam has almost nothing to do with ear training. It's mainly naming intervals, transposing stuff (all from written scores), musical terms, and the like. It's entirely written, there's no listening involved, and you don't really need any aural skills to do most of it. The only one part of the test that you need any kind of aural for is the "completion of a melody" part - you're given, say, the first bar or 2 of a melody (and maybe a bar in the middle), and you have to compose the rest. But it's still only 8 bars in total. And a very simple melody at that.

So I said that theory and ear training go hand in hand - because, IME, they are not taught together. Though they should be.
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You're right that many institutions seem to come off as if "theory" and "ear training" are different things, and this is a shame. I guess I always considered it a given that the only reason to study all of that "theory" stuff was to internalize it and then forget about it so you could use it at will. Nowadays when I play and improvise, I am almost never aware of what note I'm playing in terms of its name...instead, everything is about intervals and tension and release - a very intuitive process which I hope to make even more intuitive by training my ear further in the future.
 
#48
Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I guess I always considered it a given that the only reason to study all of that "theory" stuff was to internalize it and then forget about it so you could use it at will. Nowadays when I play and improvise, I am almost never aware of what note I'm playing in terms of its name...instead, everything is about intervals and tension and release - a very intuitive process which I hope to make even more intuitive by training my ear further in the future.
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Yes, I find similar things happen with my playing too - particularly on piano. I find this with chords - I no longer think about the names of the chords I'm playing as I'm playing them. It's like the chords have become concepts in the context of the harmony of the piece, rather than names. While I'm perfectly aware of what I'm doing harmonically, I no longer need to think about what the chord actually is, and if you asked me to name a chord I was playing, I'd have to think for a second.
 
#50
Originally posted by DISMISSED MARSHMALLOW
Nowadays when I play and improvise, I am almost never aware of what note I'm playing in terms of its name...instead, everything is about intervals and tension and release - a very intuitive process which I hope to make even more intuitive by training my ear further in the future.
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This was the point at which improv started to make sense for me too. As mentioned, knowing the theoretical concepts is one thing - knowing what to do with them and how to use them to help your bass sound like YOU is several steps above.
 
#51
Originally posted by FLUSHED_GERMS


This was the point at which improv started to make sense for me too. As mentioned, knowing the theoretical concepts is one thing - knowing what to do with them and how to use them to help your bass sound like YOU is several steps above.
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And I believe that this is the point that so many people like FAIRY HORSE and others get stuck on: When you have really absorbed a theoretical concept to the point where you really know it, you don't have to think about it anymore and you can just do it... almost as if you are playing without "knowing" anything at all. But what is really happening in this case is a deeper type of knowledge, the kind of knowledge that is worth striving for.

I've always likened the learning process to a computer analogy: Each of us has our natural ability, and we have the capacity to learn something beyond this natural ability. The natural ability is like the RAM on the computer - flexible, quick, and easily accessible; in other words, it is like our musical attention span, if you will. If you are trying to process a lot of information with this natural ability, it eats up most of your memory and leaves you less attention (memory, processing speed, etc.) to spend on interacting with the other musicians around you.

To continue the analogy, what we have learned through study, hard work and practice is like the ROM on a computer - it is programmed into your hard drive and can be accessed at any time in its fixed state, but must be interfaced with the RAM to do any good. In other words, you cannot create a piece of music or an improvised solo with your ROM knowledge alone because it isn't creative, but when the information stored in your "hard drive" is run through your "natural ability" (RAM), you can use your creativity to direct your knowledge. And this is a powerful one-two punch.

I believe that many of those who dismiss theory simply don't want to put in the work required to further program their "hard drive". Maybe they have programmed in a few things, like major, minor, and pentatonic scales, and can use these in a limited capacity on an intuitive level; in this case, they can play a limited amount of things without thinking, and perhaps forget that learning those few things took some work to "program" in the first place... so they dismiss the notion that they need to study more since they greatly prefer the feeling of what they can now do intuitively with whatever amount of knowledge they managed to program in before they decided to stop programming and start playing.

What's sad about this is that "programming" and playing are not mutually exclusive: No matter how much "programming" (new learning) a person might do, it doesn't affect their ability to play what they already know (have already "programmed"). So why stop learning? It can never erase what you already know how to do - it can only add to it and improve it.
 
#53
Originally posted by thrash_jazz
The late Philip Toshio Sudo also wrote something like this. He mentioned the difference between instinct and intuition - instinct being if you play solely based on feel; intuition being if you play based on a combination of feeling and ingrained knowledge.
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From Zen Guitar:

"Instinct reacts without inclusion of the mind. It bases action on innate tendencies. As such, instinct offers the most natural response to any situation, but it can be fooled by the surface of things. That's what leads mice into traps."

"Intuition is akin to instinct, but transcends both rational thought and innate tendencies. It bases action not on logic or impluse, but the insight of the unconcious mind. It is a sixth sense that allows us to grasp the truth in things unapparent to the other five senses, and even in the illogical."

This book always comes in handy. :)
 
#56
Are you just now learning the bass? or do you play?
I am a self taught bassist... I was a 'legit' string bass player ... for years and years... I did symphony work.

Now every time I go someplace to jam with someone I try to hide it that I ever was a 'professional' musician because I am profoundly embarassed...

I sat in living rooms with folks that 'play' they have fun... they make beautiful music, they jam, they can play with anyone... any tune... make tunes up... play blues... what ever... and guess what ... they don't know anything about 'theory' ... now I might know a little tiny bit about theory... not much really... but I read music, used to read like 'mutha' so what? I could play my 'b'ass out of a paper bag too... but could I jam, have fun, play any tune... no.

so my point is ... if you actually have an ear and can hear what it is (or sing it inside yourself) and eventually figure out where it lies on the instrument you are playing at the time... say an electric bass.... which hey ... it's laid out so nicely ... I am learning now how to 'play' how to have fun' ... 'IF" you can hear... then go there... and as you learn to hear ... then pick up a chart of some music you are playing and see what it might look like... even if it is chord changes or tab or even written out notes... like I am used to ... ( but god help me I have to have the notes written out now becuase that is how it always was) so my creative ability is very hampered.... I need to visually see the notes... so if you can actually hear - then go there... play and create and feel really good about your self... cuz that is what music is... if you can make a good sound.. play what turns you on and turns on someone else .. then applaude yourself... then if you want to expand or learn or grasp it from another place - tab - or chart or chords.... then rather than waiting till you are totally proficient at 'just playing' (which is so cool) start gradually seeing what it might look like as you learn to play... and see how it might expand or change a line or two here and there... or give you an easy fix for something you couldn't otherwise figure out...

I hope this is not too wordy.... but this truely is a serious subject.... I am crippled... as a bass player having been legit for so long... and would really love to flow playing blues or jazz or some rock n roll... god... wouldn't that be cool...

so if you don't play now... start with your ear... read a little ... play more read more... try not to get too one sided... that is where the problem gets... if we get too one sided....

study of music has value ... one composer said... 'there are no wrong notes' ... and hey ... there aren't... so if you can play... play... enjoy it.

May be that will help?

The Dorminator (working at ear...ing...)
 

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