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Theory Question

LG TPAFL

LG TPAFL

Supporting Member
Mar 27, 2021
154
247
Tampa FL
#1
If this should be in a different forum--lemme know:

I know music theory is just that (theory). But I like theory especially trying to theorize what is happening in certain music with regard to key changes, modes, etc. I'm just 4 years into being any kind of musician taking up the bass at 57 yo. I play a lot of Elton John and have been playing one of his lesser known songs, I Feel Like a Bullet (in the gun of Robert Ford. I see the key of the music noted as G, Am and maybe others. I think the verse is G and then the chorus steps up to G# with a funky bar of the flat V in it ("I'm so ashamed" lyric). Anyway if you're into Elton and/or theory, tell me what you think. I also think it's one of his and Bernie's best collaborations.
 
#2
LG TPAFL said:
I know music theory is just that (theory). But I like theory especially trying to theorize what is happening in certain music ...
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I'm not quite sure what you're asking. My understanding of music theory doesn't mesh with how you're using the word, so it may just be confusion on my part.

Are you asking about the chord changes? I'm not super familiar with the song, but I see a number of sites have chords and/or tab for it, they might be a good start.
 
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#3
Globally the verse is in the key of G as you said, but with a bit of non diatonic chords. In order of apparition: F borrowed from G minor (classic bVII I progression), E7 as a secondary dominant to Am, D#dim which works as a passing chords from D7 to Em (jazz musician view it as a substitution to B7/D# as a secondary dominant to Em), temporary modulation in the key of D with the ii V progression Em A7 (or in jazz we would write it as ii/V and V/V in the key of G).

The chorus makes a "brutal" modulation to the key of Eb, with a ii V I VI progression: Fm, Bb7, Eb, C. The most curious chord here is C, since it's not diatonic to Eb major (Cm would be). It's not surprising to have a C as a secondary dominant to the 2nd degree Fm, that would make a classic turnaround to yet another ii V I cadence. However here the C chord doesn't resolve to anything. Instead, there is another modulation to Ab major, beginning with a IV V I progression : Db Eb Ab. The C chord previously mentioned appear to be a pretext to make a parallel movement moving up a half step to the Db chord. Not a fan of this movement to be honest, I find the modulation to be a bit aggressive, but who am I to judge (I obviously don't have Elton John's career 😅). Then we stay in Ab major for the remainder of the chorus, again with a few secondary dominants here and there but nothing crazy. And of course that diminished chord you mentioned on the "I'm so ashamed lyrics", Ddim leading to Eb, same thing than the diminished chord I pointed in the verse, can be viewed either as a passing chord leading up chromatically from D to Eb, or as another spelling of secondary dominant of Eb in its first inversion which would be Bb7/D.

And there it is, it's 1am and I should be sleeping instead of transcribing this, but I'm a geek for this kind of stuff, I always love the challenge. I hope this is helpful !
 
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#5
Quentin MCB said:
Globally the verse is in the key of G as you said, but with a bit of non diatonic chords. In order of apparition: F borrowed from G minor (classic bVII I progression), E7 as a secondary dominant to Am, D#dim which works as a passing chords from D7 to Em (jazz musician view it as a substitution to B7/D# as a secondary dominant to Em), temporary modulation in the key of D with the ii V progression Em A7 (or in jazz we would write it as ii/V and V/V in the key of G).

The chorus makes a "brutal" modulation to the key of Eb, with a ii V I VI progression: Fm, Bb7, Eb, C. The most curious chord here is C, since it's not diatonic to Eb major (Cm would be). It's not surprising to have a C as a secondary dominant to the 2nd degree Fm, that would make a classic turnaround to yet another ii V I cadence. However here the C chord doesn't resolve to anything. Instead, there is another modulation to Ab major, beginning with a IV V I progression : Db Eb Ab. The C chord previously mentioned appear to be a pretext to make a parallel movement moving up a half step to the Db chord. Not a fan of this movement to be honest, I find the modulation to be a bit aggressive, but who am I to judge (I obviously don't have Elton John's career 😅). Then we stay in Ab major for the remainder of the chorus, again with a few secondary dominants here and there but nothing crazy. And of course that diminished chord you mentioned on the "I'm so ashamed lyrics", Ddim leading to Eb, same thing than the diminished chord I pointed in the verse, can be viewed either as a passing chord leading up chromatically from D to Eb, or as another spelling of secondary dominant of Eb in its first inversion which would be Bb7/D.

And there it is, it's 1am and I should be sleeping instead of transcribing this, but I'm a geek for this kind of stuff, I always love the challenge. I hope this is helpful !
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Yes it is, and exactly the kind of response I was hoping for.....Now ,to have time to dig into it. Thanks!
 
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#7
The thing to remember is that not all music is from the world of functional harmony (with key centers, secondary dominance, false modulations, modal exchange, etc.), that is, for a song writer with a limited harmonic vocabulary compositions are assembled around the chords (or chord "shapes") they know (and move around "keys" by using a capo or some such). If you are a gifted songwriter who composes on guitar or piano and the only chords you know are D7, Fmaj7, Ab diminished either by size or by shape, then those are what you use to compose. Without them having to "function" in any way that tries to define a key.
And there are a surprising number of folks who can create moments of universal truth and beauty using whatever limited personal vocabulary they have.
 
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#8
Ed Fuqua said:
The thing to remember is that not all music is from the world of functional harmony (with key centers, secondary dominance, false modulations, modal exchange, etc.), that is, for a song writer with a limited harmonic vocabulary compositions are assembled around the chords (or chord "shapes") they know (and move around "keys" by using a capo or some such). If you are a gifted songwriter who composes on guitar or piano and the only chords you know are D7, Fmaj7, Ab diminished either by size or by shape, then those are what you use to compose. Without them having to "function" in any way that tries to define a key.
And there are a surprising number of folks who can create moments of universal truth and beauty using whatever limited personal vocabulary they have.
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QFT.
 
#10
Whousedtoplay said:
What if the chorus makes a "brutal" modulation to the key of Ab (not to Eb?)
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It does both. First a modulation to the key of Eb major, then to the key of Ab major. I call them brutal because to my ear they aren't really foreshadowed by what happen before. But that's something that is somehow subjective, and can depend on what you are used to hear. For example as a jazz musician I'm used to modulations that move up a minor third (eg. C major to Eb major), if they are led by a ii V I, because that's a common modulation in many jazz standards and I'm used to hear it. However it's not the most evident modulation in regard of key proximity.

In Elton John song, the first modulation is really uncommon, switching from G major to Eb major, the two keys are really far appart. This kind of modulation one major third apart has been famously experimented by jazz saxophonist John Coltrane, but even in jazz it sounds uneasy. In a pop context like this, it's really out of the ordinary. The other modulation, from Eb major to Ab major, would be quite common since moving one fourth up is maybe the most common type of modulation (the two closest keys to Eb major are Ab major and Bb major). However the progression leading up to the modulation is uncommon and deceptive, with that C chord that I really hear as a secondary dominant for a Fm chord that never comes, and instead going up in a parallel motion to Db beginning the IV V I progression in Ab. A common way to modulate one fourth up would be : Eb Eb7 Ab, or Eb Bbm Eb7 Ab.
 
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#12
Lovin' this discussion. The THEORY that it changes keys twice! Dang-never thought of that. I love that long rest on Ab at the end of the chorus and I think that's why I thought it just moves to Ab in the chorus. I guess theory is akin to there are more ways than one to skin.....
 
#13
Whousedtoplay said:
My vision is that you don't need to modulate twice.
Just one time to the key of Ab major.
I think about the first chord of Fmin as the relative minor of Ab major.
The first example that comes to mind is "Killing me softly" - Emin7 - Amin7 - D - G....
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Oh I see what you mean, sorry I didn't understand the first time.

The beginning of the chorus is in the key of Eb major because Eb is where we can feel the resolution. Fm feels like a second degree, Bb feels like a dominant, and Eb feels like a tonic resolution. If this section were in the key of Ab major, then the Eb chord would feel like a dominant, that is the maximal tension calling for a resolution to an Ab chord. It clearly does not.

You can also analyse it looking at the scales being used in all parts (bass, chords voicings, melody) and it's the Eb major scale and not Ab major scale (with the occurrence of a natural D that doesn't exist in Ab major)
 
#14
Quentin MCB said:
Oh I see what you mean, sorry I didn't understand the first time.

The beginning of the chorus is in the key of Eb major because Eb is where we can feel the resolution. Fm feels like a second degree, Bb feels like a dominant, and Eb feels like a tonic resolution. If this section were in the key of Ab major, then the Eb chord would feel like a dominant, that is the maximal tension calling for a resolution to an Ab chord. It clearly does not.

You can also analyse it looking at the scales being used in all parts (bass, chords voicings, melody) and it's the Eb major scale and not Ab major scale (with the occurrence of a natural D that doesn't exist in Ab major)
Click to expand...
Nice. So you're saying that the D is not a diminished 5th of Ab but the 7th of Eb......excuse my relative ignorance, but I love this stuff.
 
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#16
And I have to think as a writer of the music to the lyrics, EJ is just voicing/singing it and playing it on the piano. How much is he thinking about the structure when composing? I really wish he would chime in here and explain.
 

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