Double Bass Thinking of entering upright world with a EUB. Should I?

[RickRS]

The story: Long time guitarist, recent electric bass guitar player. Join a community band ensemble that was welcoming as their string bass, using my electric bass guitar, of course. It's a challenge, with my rudiment notional skill, and I'm growing. Music within a brass and woodwind ensemble like this would be better served on a lot of parts with a bowed upright bass. To that end, I'm entertaining the idea of getting a EUB, likely the NS Design WAV4 or NXTa4, and learning how to handle a standard 3/4 upright and learning to bow. I'm thinking I will move back and forth between bass guitar and EUB, with a common amplifier used, as the song demands, while playing in the ensemble.

So, what do you think? Do-able? Delusional? I don't know the pain I'm getting myself in for? EUB isn't really going to do the job? Any and all thoughts appreciated.

 

[uprightbass.com]

Why not just get an acoustic? My personal opinion (and this is just one person's opinion) is that going EUB then DB is like introducing another step again in relearning, while going DB to EUB is a no brainer. I've had an NS Design in the past and it's its own thing. Instruments like that are a niche within a niche. It is very different than an acoustic upright in standing position, response and sound.

A DB is really incredible in feel, response, sound and even smell. It keeps me playing the instrument and has been for decades because of that. My EUB? It's really convenient, works great on stage and even allows for headphone practicing, but there's no comparison in terms of being a motivator.

But if you have zero interest in ever learning DB and an EUB is exactly the right instrument for what you want to play (and not a DB) then sure, why not do it. But based on what you wrote, it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

And if it becomes an EUB, then the NS instruments (and any other tripod stand ones) are the wrong end of the EUB spectrum.
Also useable EUBs are more expensive than student grade acoustic double basses.

 

[RickRS]

Excellent points, these. One reason for consideration of a EUB is size and portability. A DB is quite large. Transporting it back and forth would be awkward in a compact SUV. And it would take up a lot of space where I store my guitars and amps. An amp (I use an Acoustic combo amp) and a guitar case takes up a bit, but even adding a EUB seems to be manageable compared to a DB.

 

[BobKay]

Although I regularly play a Yamaha SLB300 EUB, I would recommend getting a 3/4 acoustic upright. I still own, and practice on, a 3/4 acoustic. The feel, especially with a bow, is very difficult to replicate on my Yamaha.

 

[Reiska]

I had Stagg EUB for a very little while before going all the way acoustic double bass. You sorta can test the waters on a EUB if the scale lenght and neck dimensions are similar to the DB ( NS instruments are not like that ), and if the EUB is bowable. However, a acoustic DB is totally different beast in it`s overall physicality and you need the real thing to learn it. My advice is to rent one and take a couple of lessons from a DB spesific teacher.

 

[chazolson]

I've had two EUBs. Both sounded like fretless bass guitars. Finally faced facts and bought an upright. Now I'm playing upright more than electric, and when I do play electric, it's like I've been working out - I can play so much faster and more accurately. Get an upright; you won't regret it.

 

[Wasnex]

I played an NS Design 6-string for about 15 years. It was a fabulous instrument, that I miss. As has been stated, it had it's own voice and did not sound or respond like an actual acoustic upright. I would go further and say it was stubbornly resistant to any of my attempts to make it sound more like an acoustic bass. I embraced it for what it was.

The Yamaha SB300 is the probably the closest in sound and response to an upright bass.

You may find that some people are pretty critical about anything except an acoustic upright bass. That doesn't necessarily mean they will care if it's a quality instrument.

 

[MuseChaser]

Another vote for getting an actual acoustic bass. The Shen basses are a great value, and sound and play great especially at their price point. While bass isn't my main axe, I do get hired for jazz and show gigs and taught orchestral strings including bass for 32 years. I wish I owned an acoustic, but simply don't have the space left to house one with all of my other instruments; my bass is an Alembic Epic5 fretless. It's a great instrument, but to be honest I'm an acoustic musician at heart and don't really enjoy the "remote control" experience of having to hear my sound come out of an amp; I really miss being able to play the Shen acoustic basses (and older nice Juzeks) that I played every day when I was teaching public school. here's just something about wrapping yourself around something that is MAKING the sound with you that makes it.... music.

Been thinking about trying to find an electric upright, entirely for space and portability reasons, as a stop-gap between my desire for an acoustic and my lack of desire to house one. I saw/heard Michael Moore play one with Gene Bertoncini when they and I were both working a jazz festival at Mohonk Mountain years ago, and he sounded great on it. Don't remember what make it was. Worth pursuing... or just stick with the Alembic and fond memories?

 

[bherman]

I have some experience that I think is relevant. I play both electric bass and upright bass. I have two upright basses - a 3/4 scale Shen hybrid (DB) and an Eminence EUB. I play in a band where I use both the electric bass (probably 50-75% of tunes, depending on the show) and the Eminence EUB. Mostly pizzicato but a few tunes with the bow. So here's my take on it.

The Eminence EUB is one of only a few EUBs that can get close to a DB in feel and sound. I use similar strings (Spiro solos), a DB pickup (Realist lifeline) and it has the same scale (41") as my DB. However - and this is the big factor - I am already quite adept at playing DB with a bow, so its not hard for me to get the sound that I want out of the EUB. Yes, the DB sounds better on its own and in my other band (guitar/bass/drums latin trio) its all that I use.. But In a fairly loud band, its a small tradeoff as the EUB sounds damn good, can get loud without feedback, and is easy to transport when I already have 1 or 2 speaker cabs, an electric bass, and other stuff in my car.

The more important factor is that as you describe yourself as having rudimentary notational skill, it will realistically take you a long time and lots of hours of practice to become adept on the EUB or DB, even more so with a bow. Its not that hard to go from guitar to electric bass - longer scale, bigger strings, different technique, etc but fundamentally not all that different. But upright bass, whether EUB or DB, is a completely different animal, and guitar skills do not translate at all to DB.

My suggestion is 1) find a way to rent or borrow a DB (doesn't matter if its a decent EUB or a DB) and maybe with a few lessons, see if its a realistic goal, and 2) if you decide that it is, focus on electric bass guitar for the foreseeable future with the community band while you woodshed at home for 6-12 months to get your chops together on upright bass.

Bottom line - there are a few EUBs that come really close to what you can do with a DB, and a bunch of them that sound closer to a fretless electric bass. But in my experience, its easier to make an EUB work if you already have some experience with DB and know what kind of sound you are trying to get from it. What you are describing can be done, but its likely to be more work than you imagine. Worth it in my opinion, but not an easy instrument to get proficient on.

 

[RickRS]

Bherman, wood shedding for months to develop my skills is exactly what I expect would be necessary. I'm under no illusion that I could drag a EUB or a DB in to ensemble practice and be productive in anything less than 6 months or more.

 

[bherman]

Bherman, wood shedding for months to develop my skills is exactly what I expect would be necessary. I'm under no illusion that I could drag a EUB or a DB in to ensemble practice and be productive in anything less than 6 months or more.

Excellent! As long as you know what it'll take and you have the discipline, you'll be fine.

 

[turf3]

For a community concert band, which is inherently an unamplified ensemble, I'd definitely go with a standard upright bass. The standard is to play arco unless specificallly identified as pizz - and I'd suggest doing exactly that. The sonic difference between plucked electric-bass notes thru an amp, and bowed double-bass notes heard acoustically, in the concert-band context, will be striking, and not in the electric bass' favor.

Furthermore the standard upright bass gives you tons of other playing opportunities in other genres, both unamplified and amplified.

By the time you add an amplifier to the EUB you've got a significant package to schlep, not as much as the upright but not inconsequential. I can make one trip from the car to the bandstand with an upright, folding music stand, and a notebook; it's going to be about the same to take EUB, its stand (if applicable), music stand, amp, notebook. It might even be more bundlesome to make the single trip with EUB; I'm envisioning wheels needed whereas none are needed for the upright.

The other thing is that all the techniques of proper bowing, fingering, etc., all the ways to physically address the bass, are based on the physical shape of the upright bass. EUBs don't have the same interfaces and as an upright player I find some difficulty when I play an EUB in getting everything to line up. It seems to me that starting on EUB would pose a risk of getting physical positions wrong and leading to suboptimum performance, especially in arco playing, whereas an UB player coming to the EUB knows how it should be and is able to make the necessary adaptations to get reasonable arco performance.

I'm not against EUBs, but I see them as a supplement to the upright.

 

[pklima]

I've done it that way. It's a less scary way to get into it, you're not worried this big expensive instrument will explode, but tbh it's a lot easier to get a decent bowed tone with an acoustic. And the first few months are enough of a struggle of sounding like a dying cow. You do want to practice arco even if you want to be a jazz player, because you'll develop decent intonation faster. So, it's faster and less painful to learn on acoustic.

 

[knirirr]

Why not just get an acoustic? My personal opinion (and this is just one person's opinion) is that going EUB then DB is like introducing another step again in relearning, ...

For me it wasn't an issue as the EUB I picked had a very similar fingerboard to the acoustic I eventually bought.
The EUB takes up so little space that I have it stashed as a backup, but it's difficult to bow and sounds rather unpleasant if played with one. Thus, the acoustic was the better buy.

 

[RickRS]

A

...By the time you add an amplifier to the EUB you've got a significant package to schlep, not as much as the upright but not inconsequential. I can make one trip from the car to the bandstand with an upright, folding music stand, and a notebook; it's going to be about the same to take EUB, its stand (if applicable), music stand, amp, notebook. It might even be more bundlesome to make the single trip with EUB; I'm envisioning wheels needed whereas none are needed for the upright.

In some ways, gear transportation is a factor. Currently I drag a 50 pound combo amp, and a bass guitar in a hard case in two trips back and forth. A EUB would add a third trip to and from the vehicle, as I intended to use both. The thing is EUB/amp size/bulk is acceptable for the compact SUV, but a 3/4 double bass seems doable but difficult.

Concerning bowing, this video suggest a NXTa could do a decent job, at least to my inexperienced ears.

 

[Wasnex]

Concerning bowing, this video suggest a NXTa could do a decent job, at least to my inexperienced ears.

It would be informative to hear the same person play the same piece on his upright bass. It would also be interesting to discuss with him any modifications he makes to his approach to pull a sound from each instrument. IMHO learning to bow an EUB will definitely help you learn how to bow an EUB. Probably not ideal if your goal is to learn to bow an UB. In fact some of what you learn on the EUB may be counter to what you need to play an UB well.

I used to regularly switch between BG, EUB, and, UB. I tried bowing the EUB and it was awful (IMHO). That does not mean I could not have overcome the challenges of bowing the EUB, but I did not have it purchased to serve as a proxy for the UB, so I did not pursue bowing further.

Most of the time I had plenty of room on stage for all three instruments. I typically selected whichever instrument I thought best suited the arrangement, rather than forcing one or the other into a role where it was not my first choice. For me the EUB had more of a fretless BG tone.

I never could get comfortable on a fretless BG, but the first time I pulled the EUB out of the case I found it intuitive to play. The EUB was my third choice for playing jazz standards, because it had an insane level of sustain and almost no attack on the front end of notes. So even the pizz sound of the EUB was really dissimilar to the pizz of a real UB.

There were times when I used the EUB for an entire big band concert due to space constraints. In all honesty, I don't think anyone cared but me. Part of this could be because I used technique to shape the way the instruments speaks. Part of it is because casual listeners don't tend to notice the level of nuance we experience as performers.

IMHO maybe a EUB is the right choice for you. It's up to you to weigh the benefits and costs and make an informed decision. I miss the EUB I used to play. But if I could only have an EUB or UB, I would chose the UB. It's okay if you choose the opposite.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The reason why many EUBs sound closer to a BG than an UB is often the (default) setup.
Since these instruments are mostly marketed towards the BG players (at least the cheaper easier sold ones), the setup is often low, the default strings are often lower tension and with a solid steel core like BG strings and often undamped. Strings constructed like BG strings which are often the default set sound like a BG, so on cheap instruments players might not be willing to pay up to half the price of the instrument for a new string set.

Of course, a solid body with no vibrating top misses the resonance, those with a resonance chamber sound small and strange acoustically, which may transfer to a certain degree to the amplified sound too.

It really depends in which context you play the EUB if this gets obvious and strange or not. As a player we do realize it first, but also mostly if we also play the alternative the acoustic UB.

The EUB is good for rehearsals, bigger (louder) ensembles with no or only short passages where it gets solistic or with less instruments, as a better alternative if an UB is no option for whatever reason.

The main reason when I would like to prefer the EUB over all other option is when I want a different sound than the acoustic one of an UB (using sound processing like in effects), but still keep some UB vibe, specially with bowing.

At the beginning Eberhard Weber wanted to have a small travel bass and got his first EUB. Since the sound is a bit sterile compared to an UB, he added effects that kept some characteristics of the UB/EUB like chorus, reverb, modulated delay line etc., but kept away from drastic effects like distortion, since with these kind of effects almost every sound source sounds alike.
He changed his instruments not (primarily) for sound reasons but for playability. The only exception being a vibrating top under the bridge (a cavity in the solid looking body, if I am informed correctly) because that gives a bit of resonance and helps to better start the string with the bow.
He also used piezo and magnetic pickups.

The easier traveling got a bit lost when he needs to carry two racks of studio equipment with him (as I have seen during a solo gig of him decades ago).
But at that time his special EUB sound was long established and the effect units needed to go though a complete solo concert.

So a Eberhard Weber signature instrument would sure be a well playable EUB, but without the effects and knowledge how to set them up it would still be a bit sterile sounding EUB.
So it would not make sense to name such an instrument after him and I'm quite sure he would not be interested in it.

 

[turf3]

A


In some ways, gear transportation is a factor. Currently I drag a 50 pound combo amp, and a bass guitar in a hard case in two trips back and forth. A EUB would add a third trip to and from the vehicle, as I intended to use both. The thing is EUB/amp size/bulk is acceptable for the compact SUV, but a 3/4 double bass seems doable but difficult.

Concerning bowing, this video suggest a NXTa could do a decent job, at least to my inexperienced ears.

For concert band, learn how to bow and leave the amp at home. One thing to carry (well, the music folder and a stand if not provided). I've never seen a serious concert band with string bass amplified.

 

[Wasnex]

I've never seen a serious concert band with string bass amplified.

It's very common with military bands...and it can work really well.

After joining the Air Force band program, I was a purist and only played arco acoustically for the first year or two. At some point my commander asked me to try using the amp with the bow. After rehearsal he suggested that I always use the amp.

I did a lot of experiments to learn how to get a decent sound and make it work well. IMHO probably the biggest trick is you want the arco to blend with the other bass instruments. IMHO let the tuba(s) drive the bus. The upright bass just enhances the tone a little.